All things Dungeon

Discussion in 'Debates & Discussions' started by Captain BlackJack, Aug 4, 2020.

  1. Hastur

    Hastur Level 10 (Filcher) Exiles Citizen

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    I think they are monsters. The difference here is really more that Richter has his bloodline now and the dark mastery bonus.

    An add on. Don't forget the scorpions with the malleable iron.
     
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  2. ShoughtLoud

    ShoughtLoud Level 18 (Magician) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Would like to see Richter get those scorpions Dungeon side, and the Iron Bean Pods to go with them. Malleable iron is an amazing material.

    Edit: He should try making a bag of holding from either the skin or a Memetic Flesh drop off a tier 2 Ravager Wurm. If he can pull that off it with their respective souls, he should be able to get either free memetic flesh or other healing item like he did with the scorpion. Also increases his current holding space. while down under.
     
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  3. Hastur

    Hastur Level 10 (Filcher) Exiles Citizen

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    Fantastic idea.
     
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  4. Captain BlackJack

    Captain BlackJack Level 16 (Paladin) Exiles Citizen

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    We know that the monsters of the labyrinth often attack out of desire of items of power.

    I say Ricther gets with his A- team steps through to the labyrinth and pulls out an item of power such as the magic core. That alone should draw a monster which he could entice through his labyrinth gate back into his dungeon.

    I’m just thinking about adding new monsters to his dungeon. That would be a good way to feed the dungeon.

    If nothing came for Ricthers item of power he could use a scroll of monster attraction. I would like to see that made into a enchantment.
     
  5. Captain BlackJack

    Captain BlackJack Level 16 (Paladin) Exiles Citizen

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    When Ricther gets back he will have the ability to create a new entrance. The dungeon gaining the ability to create its own inter dimensional space opens up for entrances in far off realms. That dungeon entrance will be the dungeon expanding into another space which it can readily feed from.

    My question is where should he place them?

    To me the no brainer is by the Hearth Tree. Not only would that allow Hisakos people the use of it, but it would also allow the Sprites to use the dungeon portal system if Ricther would use his DP’s to create another portcullis with a portal. That would make near instant reinforcements.
    It would add another Place of Power to Ricthers Dungeon that it could feed and learn from.

    Perhaps the second entrance should be placed at the Sepulcher to gain ambient death energies.

    It would still grant all the benefits of transport, troop reinforcement, and adventure to the Kinder people.

    An entrance in the Capital Of Yves would help the dungeon grow in elemental powers. Although, I would want to keep an entrance there secret.
     
  6. Dragon

    Dragon Level 19 (Enchanter) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Its still partially bound to the land. Now where precisely does it state these entrances can be from hundreds of miles away? Yes you get to choose a location. That does not necesarily mean anywhere in the universe. Mist domain seems a reasonable limit, same as the return to Dungeon spell.


    HT I agree would be ideal if it is unrestricted.

    The others have some severe drawbacks.
    The kindir are sweet and all that, but i'm not so sure I would want a portal inside the sepulcher. Too much risk of an enemy getting led right to it by the kindir themselves after earning their easily given trust. Same for Yves, except here you are opening a portal in enemy territory that may prove impossible to destroy or close while the Dungeon exists.

    Also, troop reinforcements enabled by a central Dungeon feature :)
     
  7. Captain BlackJack

    Captain BlackJack Level 16 (Paladin) Exiles Citizen

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    Where did it say the dungeon was limited to placing an entrance within the mist?

    That seems a little redundant to me seeing how Ricther has the Dungeon transport that can be used to enter the dungeon.

    Where did it say the dungeon was bound to the land? I don’t recall that.

    I said at the Sepulcher not in the Sepulcher. The Idea was to be close enough to draw some ambient death energies. Which in time the dungeon will learn and leak back into the surrounding area.

    If you don’t like the Idea of placing it there to make it stronger in time. Perhaps placing it at the Litchs battle site. It would be full of death energy as well. Maybe it wouldn’t hurt feeding the death energy back to it once it is awakened. Personally I would like to boost the Sepulchers SP’s.

    Doesn’t Ricther still have control over who can enter the dungeon?

    As I have stated several times he should build a portcullis and a portal at every entrance. That protects the portal system and gives him more autonomy over its use.
     
  8. Dragon

    Dragon Level 19 (Enchanter) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Where does it say it is unlimited to anywhere in the universe? Aleron isn't going to throw all balance out the window ;)

    "It is no longer completely bound to the location it occupies" meaning it is partially bound to the location it occupies. Given that it is only now starting to create its own dimension, i'd say we have some hefty indication that it is in the land. With all the problems that follow from that such as being able to use it as a weapon against your neighbors and people being able to tunnel in at the lowest level, grab the item of power, jump back into their tunnel and teleport away without ever facing a Dungeon monster or a single defense.
     
  9. Dragon

    Dragon Level 19 (Enchanter) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    As for the placement, the sepulcher is fine but the kindir are going to assume the best of everyone.

    Richter does control who can enter the Dungeon normally, but who is to say there aren't ways to breach this defense, adventurer abilities designed to force open the entrance for example.

    Fortifications are a given, Richter should build fortresses in every corner of his realm. It keeps the peasants down and is a great way to hold+bleed an enemy for days or weeks until sufficient forces can be gathered to face them in the field with confidence of victory or the invaders are weakened enough that the garrison can sally forth and drive them off.
     
  10. PokemonThug

    PokemonThug Level 17 (Theurgist) Roleplaying Exiles Beta Reader Citizen Aspiring Writer

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    or moths; like 9 weeks per say(If the town is guarded by really wise man that is).. almost not worth siedge'ing the town then.
     
  11. Hastur

    Hastur Level 10 (Filcher) Exiles Citizen

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    The Kindir are the rea
    The Kindir are the reason the Basilisk Alliance has the mist salve recipe. Definitely do not want to have a dungeon entrance by them. Trouble, trouble, trouble.
     
  12. Captain BlackJack

    Captain BlackJack Level 16 (Paladin) Exiles Citizen

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    You know it hasn’t stated Ricther has lost control of who can and con not enter the dungeon yet.
     
  13. Dragon

    Dragon Level 19 (Enchanter) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Well as black said elsewhere, fortifications are usually for buying time. Not always, there are some major exceptions and bleeding the enemy is another good use - nothing like raining arrows down on the enemy as they retreat after a failed assault. They take arrows on the way in and they take arrows on the way out. But on the whole, sieges are for buying time.

    Unless you are a coastal city, then the rules are a little different and things can turn into a yearlong standoff if both sides can resupply. Nothing gets more drawn out than a landpower trying to take a coastal city from a naval power.
     
  14. Captain BlackJack

    Captain BlackJack Level 16 (Paladin) Exiles Citizen

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    I’m sorry, Drag you must have misunderstood me again.


    :(Sigh.....................


    The point of a river post would be to alert any river forts and to alert the Mist Village. A river fort would buy time for the Mist Villiage force to get prepared for combat.

    Sieges are for cracking castles like English walnuts. They might be hard on the outside but the inside is still soft. Sieges break castles from the inside out. Directly attacking fortifications is for dummies. Like charging straight at a machine gun nest. It can work but at what cost?
    That’s why you develop a strategy to overcome fixed locations. Fixed locations are stuck and lack the ability to maneuver. That allows the attacker the whole world to move around in. Destroying goods, items, structures, and anything else that supports the enemy. Sitting outside the castles range while they go hungry and I build siege engines to kill the enemy while I sit out of their range. The Scorpio was the perfect weapon for picking off men while remaining out of range. There were even instances where men were impaled through castle doors penning them to it.

    I would hate for you to think I ever made a claim that castle were impervious to collapse. They actual feel often. If not we would still be using those old castles today.
     
  15. Dragon

    Dragon Level 19 (Enchanter) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    It takes a lot of time to undermine a prepared castle. Meanwhile the defenders are sitting behind those walls picking their times to strike. Not sure how many times I need to say this, you are not magically bound to stay within the walls of a castle. You can sally at any time. Whether that be night, day, or right into an enemy assault. Or in pursuit of said enemy force after said attack fails. Castle warfare was a critical part of warfare in the middle ages.

    Defenders can last for months in a wellprepared castle, and if its built in the right location there is often only a few good approaches. So sure you can maneuver and have your pick between approach a, b, or c. Alternatively you can attack through bad terrain where you siegeweapons can't be brought to bear to give you some cover. Good luck climbing a steep hillside carrying a siege ladder while the enemy is raining arrows, stones and trash down upon you with impunity. Hell, good luck sneaking up on lookouts who know you are out there with a force hundreds of men strong when they have the high ground.


    Look at history. Fortifications beat the vikings conquest of england, driving back the most mobile naval force in their age. Not only did they stop their advances cold, they allowed a smaller, weaker country to go on the offensive to take one bite of soil at a time and fortify it against future counter assaults.

    They allowed 15.000 men to hold 170.000 turkish troops and vassal forces at bay for two months at vienna before reinforcements arrived to relieve them, killing an approximate 20.000. That would never have happened without them.

    Comparisons with modern day realities are pointless. Its like someone in 2050 questioning whether nuclear weapons were ever a dangerous weapon after antimissile laser defences have made longrange missiles obsolete. At the time they were plenty useful.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2020
  16. Hastur

    Hastur Level 10 (Filcher) Exiles Citizen

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    The hardest part of both sides of the argument is that all the historical examples we had did not factor in the use of magic. Now could more modern weapons be considered magical....kinda sorta but magic is an immense game changer. Look at the bugbear attack of the MV when Richter let the mists down to summon Alma. Hisako summoning the Celestial fighter completely changed the course of the fight. The dark mage raising the skeletons was a big factor that almost won the fight. Now Richter can create Golems...is there any way he survives the Ravager Worm with out it? Now that he has figured out he can use blood magic to control them he could be he never would have survived long enough with the Golem.

    Finally there is the in inordinately higher number of casters in the MV. Hisako has mentioned that MV numbers are far higher than normal...this we know is due to the Quickening and other factors. If the BA takes to long and these casters level enough it will be a slaughter. In the Goblin fight for like 1k troops there was one caster. Also factor in the healing casters that can keep fighters in the battle.
     
  17. Dragon

    Dragon Level 19 (Enchanter) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    The village has quite a few spell slingers and hedge mages at the novice and initiate tier for the most part. Many will never develop beyond that as they lack the affinity or desire. Most novice and initiate spells are very short range.

    That's not to say some of the spells aren't outright diabolical, throwing the greasespell on enemy battering rams and siege ladders for example should make it a lot easier to put them aflame. Which ignores the true potential of throwing it on the bugbears trying to cross the wall. Talk about catching fire.

    Crueler perhaps, as grease lasts for a while how about casting it beforehand say 20 feet from the wall or so, maintaining it over time. You then wait for the bugbears to launch a charge, let the front reach the wall and then you throw a fireball lighting the grease aflame. Done right you'd burn some of them to death, cut off those closest to the wall and drive back the remaining attackers. Good way to break an assault. Once the bugbears are halted, a volley or two of charged sprite arrows should send them running.
     
  18. Dragon

    Dragon Level 19 (Enchanter) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Building medival siege weapons in the field? Not happening. Certainly not something as complex as a scorpio or ballista, these took professionals in a workshop to make, not peasants in an open field. Siege engines were quite expensive and not known for their great mobility. Siege trains were the slowest part of a medieval army.

    About the only thing you'd be able to easily make in place is a battering ram. Maybe some kind of siege tower.

    Seige Engine Info
    This gives a fairly good idea of the limitations of siege engines. It also shortly gets into how besieged garrisons survived on a mixture of storaged food, various food animals, pets, rats and dead people. Usually in that order. You can live a long time off of "meat" as long as you have water. Sometimes garrisons surrendered due to starvation of course, but when dealing with foes like the turks that had a tendency to execute the prisoners out of hand, surrender means death. Or worse.
     
  19. Captain BlackJack

    Captain BlackJack Level 16 (Paladin) Exiles Citizen

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    Siege engines can’t be built in the field?????

    You might want to rethink that.
     
  20. Dragon

    Dragon Level 19 (Enchanter) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    I would like to see you build a ballista in an open field from raw materials, its a complex piece of machinery. Your peasants are not going to build that, it takes professionals working in a workshop, which is the reason they were expensive. Assembling them for use is the extent of the skills of most medieval gynners, and even that isn't something anyone can just do.

    Try the link, its a reasonably good source.
    Seige Engine Info

    Edit:
    Now that I think of it, i'm almost willing to pay good money just to watch you attempt to build a functional ballista from scratch with a bunch of peasants "aiding" you in this endeavor. Using medieval tools and whatever you can scavenge (and carry back) from the countryside as materials (no modern stuff).
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2020




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