Dukedoms of Yves

Discussion in 'Debates & Discussions' started by PokemonThug, Mar 16, 2021.

  1. PokemonThug

    PokemonThug Level 17 (Theurgist) Roleplaying Exiles Beta Reader Citizen Aspiring Writer

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    Say Richter would like to move in on the Yves kingdom.
    He could find a Duke/royalty who has a palace/keep/ & land. But is in debt, needs cash. And has enemies at the gate who want his land and his life. As AK stated in his latest fb video live. Yve's is made out of small kingdoms/dukedoms who have their own laws and rules...

    So Richter:
    1. Gets an oath of secrecy, other wise duke will snitch.
    2. Get a legit royalty palace to operate form and assasinarium'iate unwanted dukes.
    3. Sell his wares through "legal" channels and improve the name of the now super lucky duke.
    4. Repays dukes debts.. And offs his business partners. End result could be a companion Duke to Richter.
    5. Richter also could even marry(or pretend to) one of Dukes daughters to cement the agreement hehe
    accidentally deleted original post.. so ur getting a ripped off version of this genius idea. Think on it more..

    Why would it work?
    Now avg citizen makes what 2 silvers per fortnight?
    "His moonstone arrows probably cost several silver each, a fortnight’spay for most workers, but there was no denying the damage they inflicted."

    So an avg magic book would cost ~30 gold f.e. just to show that this is plausible. Say we sell 100 of them.(or potions of luck, potions of faster experience gain, crystal.. we have resources! magic bags of holding.. or just take taxed $ form adventurers..)
    so this is +-3000 gold.

    Now in MV yearly payment for workers is: ~ 600(working citizens)*14(months)* 4(2 fortnights pay in silver) =
    33600 silver => 3360 gold.

    Pretty sure this should most def cover most of possible debts a duke might have.. or at very least make his debts manageable. And we will be doing a lot of trading for a long time... so this is great.
    And if anything bad happens the fault for any wrong doing falls on the Duke of one of the kingdoms of Yve(Internal strife)!
    Also we would not be paying any taxes for this Duke.. so that makes up for initial investment during a few years of time..

    Money can be used to hire mercenaries.. and Mercenaries can be used to settle a border disputes vs our Duke and another Duke.. Accidentally ransacking other dukes Treasury and other luscious delicious delights..

    So what do you think?
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2021
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  2. Johan

    Johan Level 18 (Magician) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    "Is that the mist village has 10 miles surrounding it and that distance can go up. The question is :what happens when two spheres of influence from places of power come together? I will tell you that it is that kind of action that has allowed the kingdom of law to be created. So it is not just that the king has power but that the primary dukes in his country... also have their own places of power. So there will be side stories to go along with that." Aleron

    Do dukes have much in the way of their own laws and rules? I suppose so, as long as it doesn't contradict the kings laws. Are they puppet rulers put in place or are they originally the pop family that swore fealty, which would be very tight either way so no betrayal via Richter could happen.
     
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  3. PokemonThug

    PokemonThug Level 17 (Theurgist) Roleplaying Exiles Beta Reader Citizen Aspiring Writer

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    Royal family and some far aeay dukes kingdom is nit the same.. also we are targeting the lowest duke, nit nr2 in the kingdom. But I bet coint stonik did nit make any oaths.. nobility is independent
     
  4. Dragon

    Dragon Level 19 (Enchanter) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    I don't think the dukes would have their own laws, that would indicate an extremely weak central power with the dukes being effectively independent. Kingdoms are not federations and this is no empire with many nations. Its a huge kingdom home to one nation that has driven all others out of an area the size of the US. That speaks to a level of organization and centralization that would be impossible on earth.

    On the other hand, most earth rulers lived to 60-70 whereas in the land there is a decent chance a king or duke will live til they are 120 - 130. They'd probably inherit later in life as well, when they are more experienced. Overall, longer reigns by more experienced people would lead to longer periods of stability and growth.

    One land, one law, is one of the most important cornerstones a kingdom can put down, hence Richter's codex of laws is crazy important and must be enforced everywhere in his lands, with the exception of the vassal state as that is technically a different country. Being able and willing to enforce those laws gives the king legitimacy and it forces respect from the nobility. Does the king care that some nobleman is stealing land from freemen and forcing them into serfdom? Probably not, but the law is effectively the kings own word. The peasant means little, but the kings law is important.

    Key nobles are definitely made to swear fealty to the king upon taking their seat. The question is whether they swear to bring their future children, spouses and the lesser nobility to swear fealty or those people swear loyalty to the dukedom and are only sworn to the kingdom through the duke.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2021
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  5. Dragon

    Dragon Level 19 (Enchanter) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    As for the idea of a poor duke, I don't think Richter has anything close to the wealth required to turn an Yvesian Duke at the moment. Not only are they sworn to the kingdom, just a level 2 pop would cover 1256 square miles of territory, the size of Rhode island give or take a few square miles. In most cases pop's are probably some of the most built-up regions in the kingdom, generating wealth from a population in the tens if not hundreds of thousands. 2 silver a forthnight for 33,5 forthnights a year, with the duke taking 10%(very low tax) of their income as tax, equals to 2 cobber per week or 6700 gold per 10.000 people in taxes every year.

    Currently most of them would look at Richter as lower nobility, someone with a few hundred peasants turned warriors under his banner and a few thousand gold to his name. Along with a single ratty village.

    Don't forget, to the feudal mind Land is far more important than gold and silver. Land provides a guaranteed income every year whereas coin is gone once you've spent it. Always take land over coin.


    They on the other hand have scores of villages and at least a few towns to their name. Along with barons and plenty of lower nobility. Said villages and towns are obliged to provide men (and women?) to serve in the levy whether they want to or not. The nobility is required to provide for said levies, and if called to ride out along with their men-at-arms and lower nobles/ knights. The dukes may also have a small professional army, but historically it was only the wealthiest of nobles that could afford a standing army.

    Nobles and relatively welloff freemen were required to bring their own weapons, armor and warhorse. Serfs and lower peasantry were provided for, often by their immediate overlord rather than the duke's purse. Said nobility often also had to feed their part of the levy.

    Which is a longwinded way of saying that dukes may not be flush with cash, but high nobility are good at making those below them pick up the bills for the upkeep of their armies.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2021
  6. Johan

    Johan Level 18 (Magician) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Low nobility indeed, he is considered a chieftain.
     
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  7. PokemonThug

    PokemonThug Level 17 (Theurgist) Roleplaying Exiles Beta Reader Citizen Aspiring Writer

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    My targeted "Duke/Noble" is a guy who has a similar population to Richter to max 2/3x bigger.
    1. We are targeting a low ranking Noble/Duke, someone who is in deep $i%$. Such a Duke can be dumb, stupid, irresponsible, a drunk... he could have gambled away all his $ and be in debt.
    2. I bet very few nobles would make any oaths whatsoever. Why bother? If I have to make an Oath I'd rather wage war.
    3. Really random calculation. Our targeted duke/Noble would have approx few hundred to max few k ppl living in his lands.. We might even do well with a Noble without Lands.
    4. Random calculations are useless, duke or Noble has a ton of expenses: food, taxes to the kind, debts, salaries, army, training etc.. I bet they do have very little of hard cash in hand and everything is spent. More likely such a duke might even have those who steal from him...
    Say we take a range 200 to 1000 working citizens(If they really have 10k to 100k, reasonable middle age size for bigger towns we won't bother) (real citizens 300 to 1300, no one is paying for the sick, children or the old or not working ones) +-.. so their salaries are: 2*2*14 *200 = 12800 silver or 1280 GOLD to 2*2*14*1000 = 56000 silver or 5600 gold?!
    So with taxes Noble/Duke gets what: 128 - 560 gold per year.
    Now his expenses are :
    • Debt payments say debt is 2000 gold and yearly tax is 10% so 200 gold
    • Food for ppl: 100 gold
    • taxes to the King 150 gold
    • army/guards 100 gold
    • Total: 550 gold expenses on income of 128 -560. Now say an accident happens, a kidnapped daughter and u have to pay 300 gold for ransom! So even 300 gold would be a lot for him.
    What If war happens? wars are expensive? Plague? Failed trade deals..

    Now our entire trade is operated through Basil(lvl 12 dude) and The Arabic trading alliance. Sure they have some leeway but not as much as a noble could get away with.
    Even if total control of a Duke is impossible a partial trade deal could be done, especially if a younger dukes family member would be oathed to us.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2021
  8. Johan

    Johan Level 18 (Magician) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    So the only people I would have Richter tangle with are the people dealing with the Exiles. Now that is at least the baron stonick and could also be his Duke. That kingdom is being eroded by the Exiles (& minions?) to provide the slaves. Manipulation of that level needs to be stopped, which will be a few books from now I hope.

    If a Duke has a Pop, what does the baron have? A number of villages with a plant or farms... Plant-ation. Probably no pop at least.
     
  9. Dragon

    Dragon Level 19 (Enchanter) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    2: Because there is zero choice. You want to inherit or take over a territory, you swear an oath of fealty to the noble above you. If you don't, well you just invalidated your own claim.

    Rebelling against the king is all but certain to lead to your death. Few if any nobles will follow you, if your only complaint is that the king demands an oath of fealty. After all, dukes themselves demand oaths of fealty from those below them in the noble hierachy. Those below them demand oaths from those further down.

    3: There is no way a duke would have a measly couple thousand people below them, that's the population of a large village, which would be tiny for a barony and about right for a baronet with a few knights, and a handful of men at arms. Yvesian dukes are high nobility with a pop of their own, which means they control a population center and a large region surrounding it, built up over the course of centuries by their ancestors.

    A conservative estimate would be tens of thousands of people, with tens of thousands in gold in taxes per year.


    If Richter wanted to target someone, mid-tier nobility such as the count would be his best option. Poor enough that a few thousand gold in cash could at least win their interest, and big enough to have a smidge of insight into the goings on of the higher nobility. As long as they play it smart and ask smart questions (meaning don't ask for shit about their own overlord) they should be able to gain a bit of info.
     
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  10. Dragon

    Dragon Level 19 (Enchanter) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Manors with a number of serfs bound to them is one possibility. Possibly some freemen living within their territory as well, who pay taxes and are obliged to support their lord in times of war in return for protection and access to public works such as roads.

    Plantations were for slaves in the colonies mostly. Not saying there won't be any in Yves, but unlike slaves where you can work them to death and just buy new ones, serfs can't be easily replaced. Not in large numbers.

    The nonhuman slaves provide an expendable workforce for the nobility. I expect many are subjected to inhuman working and living conditions.
     
  11. Johan

    Johan Level 18 (Magician) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    I believe the dukes will at minimum have these requirements to the king. Of course this is only from a tribe to a minor tribe.

    “I, Richter, Master of the Mist Village, do extend to you an offer of vassalage. You and your people will come to my call, in war or in peace. You will act in the best interests of me, your liege, and never against me or mine..."
     
  12. Captain BlackJack

    Captain BlackJack Level 15 (Guardian) Exiles Citizen

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    Pokey, Dukes would have rights to and control thousands of acres. They would also have a very large amount of manors which sworn men would live such knights. Dukes fall right under the King in power. Counts are way down the chain from a Duke. If Randy could help Ricther get access to a friendly Duke that would be Major. Considering any Duke would likely have a few peers which are friends, as a group they could cause major problems for about anyone. I just don’t see the King or his friends leaving any non sworn Dukes alive or in power.
     
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  13. Dragon

    Dragon Level 19 (Enchanter) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    In fairness, oaths of fealty are kinda key to the whole feudal system from the highest to the lowest. Even serfs were sworn, though often to homage (essentially "i am your man in all things" vs "you are my overlord whom I owe certain duties"). It would be stranger if the dukes weren't sworn. How would the kings keep them loyal if they have no obligation to obey in the eyes of their own subjects, themselves, outsiders, or even the banished gods?

    Its not as restrictive as one might think. The dukes are owed certain things and they likely force the king to swear to a handfesting, an oath restricting what the king can and cannot do. Its also fairly standard that all oaths to an oathbreaker are considered broken. You can't just break one oath. A kings word is the law.
     
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  14. Captain BlackJack

    Captain BlackJack Level 15 (Guardian) Exiles Citizen

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    I’m not so sure how stringent oaths would be for Dukes in Yves. It hasn’t really been expressed clearly. I believe it has been stated that there is or has been a lot of turmoil and in fighting inside the boarders of Yves. If the King had aspirations to expand his kingdom by using foreign powers as some of theorized wouldn’t he want to keep all his forces in Yves at peace? That way they would be at full strength for any future expansion. Internal fighting would radically reduce the size of any possible army he could gather.
     
  15. Dragon

    Dragon Level 19 (Enchanter) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    I'm not sure how many quotes we have indicating civil unrest in Yves is a major factor. On the contrary.

    We know that by book 1 the king had managed to spread his hatred to the border regions.
    That kind of thinking can be a great unifier.
     




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