Growing the Dungeon

Discussion in 'Debates & Discussions' started by PokemonThug, Aug 31, 2021.

  1. Mister Bill

    Mister Bill Level 14 (Defender) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    How would that even work?
     
  2. Andrew Lynas

    Andrew Lynas Level 17 (Theurgist) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Well there's different Ranks/Tiers of Elementals and they had to have Evolved(?) from something so there's a good likelihood that there's Beast/Animal Elemental entities in their own Realm/Plane.
     
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  3. Captain BlackJack

    Captain BlackJack Level 16 (Paladin) Exiles Citizen

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    I find this humorous. Didn’t you tell me once there was no way Randy and Ricther could find the heart of the hall of elemental hunters?

    So how is it 500 angry soldiers, dozens of specialists, and combat Mages enter Richters dungeon then head straight for its heart?
     
  4. Captain BlackJack

    Captain BlackJack Level 16 (Paladin) Exiles Citizen

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    Ricther needs to drop the memetic flesh cube in as a offering to the dungeon. Then he needs to claim and pay out in gold.
     
  5. Andrew Lynas

    Andrew Lynas Level 17 (Theurgist) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    The Hall would likely be a good place to get Items, Materials, Plants, Body Parts, ect of Earth and Fire Affinity (and possibly others?) that can be used to help Awaken the MV Dungeons Fire and Earth Magic. Plus they can also be used by the MV Dungeon to generate those things itself in itself. Plus the Hall would probably be a good source of new Beasts and Powerful & Rare Blood.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2021
  6. Dragon

    Dragon Level 19 (Enchanter) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    True.
    Item of power protected by the harbinger then :)


    The location of the yvesian heart is unknown.

    I don't think I said it was impossible, just that it was unlikely to have as massive an effect as people think. Not to mention, they are going to put every resource at their disposal into tracking down the holder. Including cream of the crop adventurers who have been dungeon diving for decades.
     
  7. Dragon

    Dragon Level 19 (Enchanter) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Its going to happen eventually, but its not a move that makes sense at this time. It would be similar to Denmark messing with the US because we don't like your policies. Sure we might irritate you and harm you a little, but there is no question the US can and would strike back a lot harder. So would Yves and if anything the power disparity is greater.

    Richter has anonymity as his greatest strength.

    The yvesian king doesn't care about richter or the duke, he cares about reforging Yves in his image. That process is still underway, nonhumans haven't yet been reduced to the status of slaves, they still have some rights, and there are still a significant portion of the population that aren't convinced all nonhumans are the enemy.
    Once the citizens of Yves are convinced nonhumans are primitive, stupid, etc. and gennerally much better off serving humans, its likely the Yvesian king will restart the expansion wars that forged the kingdom in the first place. As i've said elsewhere, I consider it quite possible the king is pulling the threads on the invading alliance.

    Imagine this: Yves probs up a warlord from the swamps, powerlevel him and a handfull of elites in their Dungeon, help him tier up and provide a handful of powerful weapons such as the bloodstone.

    Suddenly said warlord is a powerhouse compared to his rivals, someone capable of dominating the goblin, orc, bugbear and other greenskin tribes. Drow, Trolls and possibly even duergar are promised various concessions by Yves and their puppet warlord, leading to them giving both direct and indirect support to the war effort.

    They eventually launch an invasion of the forest of Nadria, attempting to seize as much land as they can while also doing massive damage. The forest tribes fight back, eventually forming an army of their own.

    They clash, the forest burns and regardless of who wins Yves stands ready on the sideline to launch their own invasion of the forest. Nonhumans in the conquered areas will be assigned caretakers similar to what already exist in Yves, people tasked with "civilizing the natives".
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2021
  8. Dragon

    Dragon Level 19 (Enchanter) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    While the king remains disinterested in Richter he has an opening. He needs to liberate as many yvesian nonhumans as he can, which means buying them from their owners whereever possible.
     
  9. Captain BlackJack

    Captain BlackJack Level 16 (Paladin) Exiles Citizen

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    No one holds the dungeons heart which is a item of power in every Dungeon. A Dungeons heart we have been told can either be removed for its power or it can be left in its place. Whoever finds the heart of a Dungeon can either remove it destroying the dungeon. If they choose not to remove the dungeons heart they gain control over the dungeon.

    The Dungeons crystal is different then the Dungeons heart as you are well aware of. I am not so sure anyone needs to track down the Dungeons heart crystal. We know that the King receives benefits from his fore fathers having taken control of the dungeons crystal. That doesn’t necessarily mean the king now has it in his possession. It definitely means no one else since has claimed the crystal.

    So if Ricther and Randy can claim the heart of the Dungeon not only would it grant control over the Dungeon but it should strip Randy’s Nephew of his bonuses.Randy might have sworn never to take the thrown but that doesn’t mean he can’t become the De facto Master of the Dungeon for the Lord of Mist.
     
  10. Captain BlackJack

    Captain BlackJack Level 16 (Paladin) Exiles Citizen

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    So where did you get your spoiler from?
     
  11. Captain BlackJack

    Captain BlackJack Level 16 (Paladin) Exiles Citizen

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    So do you have a spoiler stating that Ricther is going to buy nonhumans out of bondage?

    I didn’t know that Ricther had that kind of gold. Buying nonhumans out of servitude would be very costly. To me that just doesn’t seem right for the story.

    I think Aleron intends to make Ricther hero of sorts. I doubt very seriously that Aleron will have Richter buying nonhumans out of servitude. I just can’t ever see that happening. Of course that could be because I’m just an American rube.
     
  12. Andrew Lynas

    Andrew Lynas Level 17 (Theurgist) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    The old Kings of Law never found the Dungeon Master Crystal, they did find the PoP Heart/Master Crystal that the Dungeon was in the Domain of though. They been looking for the Dungeon Crystal ever since.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2021 at 6:45 PM
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  13. Dragon

    Dragon Level 19 (Enchanter) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Ok I may be mixing the concepts, its been a while since I read the books.

    The location of the yvesian crystal is unknown. There is no Master

    The location of the yvesian iop is unknown to us as readers, but I'd guess at least some adventurers have dived that deep. If nothing else, the dungeon keeper would have known where it was, and he was loyal to the crown for a long time before going crazy.

    Claiming the iop and removing it from the Dungeon is the only known way to kill a Dungeon. It has not, as far as I know, been established that touching it is a way to claim the Dungeon. You need the mastery crystal for that.
     
  14. Dragon

    Dragon Level 19 (Enchanter) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    I do not have such a quote, I just think its the sensible option.

    Historically the US government compensated slave owners when they liberated the slaves. Personal feelings aside on paying blood money to scummy slavers, it ensured stability and made them much more likely to go along with it. In the long run the former slaves were better off. It might not be just, but sometimes one has to bend the rules. This is such a time.

    The price would be fairly low. Most workers earn the equivalent of two silvers a forthnight or a silver per week. Most of that silver goes to their upkeep, which would be just as true for a slave. They still need food, water, housing and clothes to survive. A dead slave is a worthless slave. Say the slave owner can squeeze out half a silver a forthnight for the average unskilled slave, that totals to 3.3 gold a year if everything goes ideally. 3 gold is probably more realistic, accounting for things such as illness and unforseen expenses. I'd say 3 years income or a lump sum of 9-10 gold is a more than decent payment for a slave.

    As you point out, raising the money is problematic. Perhaps Richter can borrow money from the white pearl company. They know Richter has a number of treasures, even if they are unclear on the specifics. Hafiz would likely lend Richter a lot of money as long as he received appropriate oaths of repayment in either cash or treasure. With Richter's assets maintaining and eventually repaying even a very, very large debt would be fairly easy.

    The dwarves or HM (in the form of potions, pelts and other natural resources that can easily be transformed into gold through a merchant ) would also make for a sensible choice for an investor.


    Not sure why you refer to yourself as a rube, I think you have several good points.

    I will say that anyone who puts their own life and property on the line for someone they don't know without real hope of compensation is a hero. It is not the best or smartest way to burst through the door and charge forward when you are clearly the underdog. Pulling forth your wallet on the other hand works in most circumstances, as long as the wallet is fat enough.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2021 at 1:39 PM
  15. Dragon

    Dragon Level 19 (Enchanter) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    I reason based on what we have seen of the kingdom so far.

    We know from book one from the innkeeper that hatred of nonhumans is spreading and that more and more humans dislike nonhumans.

    Nonhumans are either bonded with a human or bound to a location/ job where their manager pays them copper on the gold.

    Nonhumans are relegated to living in a small part of Law, what would have historically been referred to as a ghetto. Their rights have been significantly reduced, for example, they cannot leave the city. The same is true for nonhumans across the kingdom. It seems overwhelmingly likely that the king will keep tightening the screws as he has since his coronation.

    We know the king is a coward who has only unlocked a single power, someone who likes to conspire with the most conservative, anti-nonhuman factions within the kingdom. They have already stripped the nonhumans in Yves of their worldly possessions, their freedoms, their lives, and in some cases their very souls. There is nothing of significant value left to squeeze out of the yvesian nonhumans apart from the labors of their artisans. This means it's likely no one cares that much about regular folk, nonhumans without high skills or magic.

    Taking the lands, resources, and populations (as slaves) of relatively weak nonhuman tribes bordering the kingdom is the next logical step. It's what, at least in my eyes, the king has been laying the groundwork towards over the course of a decade. Wars of expansion need popular support and there is no question many humans will flock to the banners of the kingdom, hoping to win riches and glory while subjugating the foul nonhumans.

    A decade prior, such wars wouldn't have had much support, nonhumans were accepted members of yvesian society. Changing that, I think, was always a big part of the king's and his advisors' goal.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2021 at 2:16 PM
  16. Dragon

    Dragon Level 19 (Enchanter) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    For the general sense of what living in Law is like for a nonhuman.

     
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  17. Captain BlackJack

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    I think you are right. It’s been a while for me to. I remember the Randy speaking of the King having some powers related to his dungeon but I think they are all so the same as his PoP. I know Randy said he wasn’t much of an adventurous person and hadn’t developed his powers since he had last seen him. That had me thinking it was due to him not Dungeon diving but it must have been PoP related. I was thinking that the dungeon powers were passed along one’s lineage as well as the place of power. Either way if someone touches the Dungeons heart they are supposed to be rewarded the choice of claiming the Dungeon or its item of power.
     
  18. Captain BlackJack

    Captain BlackJack Level 16 (Paladin) Exiles Citizen

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    Do you?


    I do think this is significant to Alerons building of his self character. Many people feel and some have lived the same way living their American Experience. This ties Aleron to real issues of the past and present. In doing so Aleron has built his self character up to be the hero of the persecuted and down trodden.

    Has it been clearly expressed that the new King is a coward? I don’t recall that. I know he isn’t an adventurer. Randy said he was more interested in other things. It seemed to me that Randy sees the King as being misled more then anything else.

    You have made the similar statement about the King and Conservatives before. That statement really shows a lack of understanding of the term conservative. It’s definitely an attempt by either you or Aleron to demonize Conservatives by lumping them in with Racists. Honestly I don’t recall the term being used but claiming conservative humans are stripping others of possessions, freedoms, and even their souls is comparable to the Nazis of the 1930’s and 1940’s. Which the Nazi party was actually the German Socialist Party ran by Facism.

    Facism Defined by Merriam Webster
    : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascist) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

    During the American Civil war the Confederacy used these same fascist ideals to provoke the poor white population to fight for the slave holding minorities.

    Aleron does energize his writings by the use of racial discrimination in order to build his Hero. I don’t believe all humans in Yves have been given this villainy quality. Only that some hold these gross beliefs and are greatly influencing Yves and the King.

    Personally I haven’t seen all nonhumans stripped of all possessions. I do recall a nonhuman owning books and other such items as a magic shop owner with a human family friend as the face of the store ownership. At least that’s how I recall it. Also if all the nonhumans had been completely stripped of possessions they wouldn’t have had anything when moving to the Mist Village. Not that I am making the claim that they were and are all laden with possessions.

    But is that not the same thing that Yves is historically known for? My understanding is that historically Yves has been known for war and conquest. The taking of lands, wealth, and the subjugation of the people of those nations would have been common place. I would also think those subjugated would be treated worse then any native serf of Yves. Like the conquest of the Vikings people would be taken as slaves, for ransom, if not murdered on the spot. Although many people would escape to tell the story.

    I agree prior to Randy’s fathers passing he filled differently. Now with Randy’s nephew on the thrown and others having his ear things are definitely different. I think Randy has expressed that clearly.
     
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  19. Dragon

    Dragon Level 19 (Enchanter) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    No it doesn't. Stop pinholling everything into an american context, there is an entire world out there. All of us have our own flavors of conservatism. This is from wiki but it is still a pretty good definition of what it means to be conservative. It does not mean you are a nazi.

    Conservatism is an aesthetic, cultural, social, and political philosophy, which seeks to promote and to preserve traditional social institutions.[1] The central tenets of conservatism may vary in relation to the traditional values or practices of the culture and civilization in which it appears.



    In an Yvesian context, I think conservatives wish to go back to an earlier age where the kingdom was an expansionist power, the golden age of the kingdom. Embracing the ideal that humans is inherently the greatest of the races serves to further that goal. Traditionally conquered populations were likely fairly low-status as well if not outright slaves, so embracing that traditional view would be conservative as well.


    Finally the nazis were not socialist. They embraced that term, but only because it was a very popular movement at the time. Its similar to violent groups within antifa calling themselves anti-fascist, it doesn't mean they are anything of the sort.
     
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  20. Captain BlackJack

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    If you haven’t noticed Aleron is an American.

    So do you think Aleron gets his whole social context of racial injustice from Denmark?

    Please look up the meaning of the acronym Nazi Party.

    This is from Britannica

    Nazi Party, byname of National Socialist German Workers’ Party, German Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (NSDAP), political party of the mass movement known as National Socialism. Under the leadership of Adolf Hitler, the party came to power in Germany in 1933 and governed by totalitarian methods until 1945.
     

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