In yet another random question as the thought occurs to me... How do you like your levels in LitRPG? Really big or really small? Do you prefer, say, WoW-style progression where breezing from 1-30 is nothing and the top is 100+? Or do you like them smaller and more difficult, more like D&D where level 20 is near god-like?
Really small. I can't really tell the difference between 68 and 69, and much less between 132 and 133. That said, I don't mind if it's a "game-feel" thing and not meant to be understood. But do help me out a bit and somehow let me know what those numbers mean. If everyone in the game knows mobs +10 levels above you are "difficult" and +20 levels are "impossible", it helps me as a reader understand what those numbers do so when I see a mob pop up I'll have a chance to go "Whoa, this is going to be tough!" and not wait for the character to tell me so. (The worst way to do this is to have mobs show up, characters launch into a fight, fight ends in some way, and then tell me afterward that "I didn't think we could have done that" -- I mean, before people launch into a fight, appraise it for me first. I need some prior understanding to know if the characters feel the encounter is "ez peezy", "easy but a grind", "challenging but doable", or "holy **** we're going to die for sure" -- so I will know how to feel about the scene) Sorry for the tangent -- my brain isn't working. (and, dang, no more of that sleepy time tea again... I only managed to write like... 30 words today)
I was considering a levelling system in the thousands for awhile. Why not? Get some big skills at the -50 and -100 multiple levels.
You may want to check this article by Raph Koster ("Do levels suck?") Do levels suck? (Super-extra-quick: probably closer to D&D than WoW =)
Nice article! He raises some good points and some interesting thoughts. Also, I'm with Windfall. Having played MMOs, levels mean...very little except at the highest and lowest points. I actually prefer the D&D style of "small" levels that take a while, but give good rewards when you get there myself. I mean, levels are meaningless if a level 40 can kill a level 100 by pulling some random special weapon out, etc. If the levels mean nothing, the numbers are just pointless and I don't think they're necessary. Plus if it's super, super hard to get at high levels, most people would be rather frustrated with the situation I assume.
If I have to have levels I prefer the WoW style, however as a gamer (and reader of LitRPG) I prefer systems that don't use character levels at all and instead rely on how far advanced skills, abilities, etc are to determine a character's power.
Personally I prefer them relatively small so that if feels like more of an accomplishment when the characters level up. Having said that there are times when a larger level scale works well too.
Depends. With Astral Falls, I was going with a Fibonacci leveling scheme (which is functionally similar to exponential XP leveling), and the problem that poses is that you level up a lot early on but then you suddenly hit a wall around level 10 or 11 or so where you start having to really bust your ass just to level up. And there are 33 possible levels. Like with all things exponential, it seems funny early on when you so much as swat a fly and level up. But the difference between level 32 and 33 is something like 4 billion EXP. It certainly makes leveling up later on feel more epic and less like a grind that just has to happen, but the grind is why people play RPGs, so then you look to the other end where levels are pretty evenly spread out. There was one litRPG story whose name escapes me at the moment because it's freaking 12:30 AM and I'm struggling to not fall asleep while typing this, where the characters were at something crazy like level 1,000. And it just brings me back to Dragon Ball Z where, after some point, you just stop caring about the numbers. What's the difference between level 974 and 975, exactly? Should we care? It just symbolizes progression. Levels 1-10 were all individually as important levels 100 to 1,000 were in hundred-sized chunks because the narrative of progression is what matters. You can't find a happy medium because these all work for different situations. Like in Astral Falls again, where they're not really playing for fun and getting such high EXP serves a point that makes sense in context, and having 1,000 individual levels would ruin that point. So I guess it depends on what sort of narrative you have.
I do like the idea of it being easier in the newer levels to promote interest/survival, but getting progressively harder to get higher and higher. It brings home the point (in that particular setting anyway) that a level X (be it 20, 50 or 100) is something or someone dangerous and tough and to be respected (if not feared). One thing I also consider is if "heroes" (player characters basically) get to level faster and/or more easily than NPCs. To me, it makes sense for that to be the case because otherwise, why wouldn't every NPC be considerably higher level than any new heroes, which can present a lot of problems or at least awkward questions. Like why would a bunch of level 25 farmers fighting level 12 orcs even need your level 10 hero? They can do it themselves!
I don't use levels for character progression. Characters strength changes from day to day from their own activities. Their classes are ranked, designating skill over power. Someone could be tens across the board for average stats, but if they are skilled in what they do, their rank's going to be higher despite stats.
For roughly the same reasons that a Level 25 Shopkeeper calls 911 when assaulted by a Level 12 Robber, and then two Level 10 Cops show up to detain the Robber? (Well, if this was a movie it would be a Level 9 Hotshot Rookie and a Level 11 Grumpy Vet rather than just two plain Level 10 Cops, and then they have a quarrel about how Hotshot went all solo and Grumpy had to bail his Rookie ass out, but then they turn into friends, and by the Second Turning Point Grumpy probably dies when again Hotshot goes all rookie-solo, and that pushes the movie to the climax, but, I mean, roughly speaking, same deal! =)
...Plot devices?! I mean, it's true, it happens. Heck, most of the time to prevent PVP griefing merchants and stuff are high level Elites in a lot of games. It just always struck me as kind of weird that this level 100 Elite that can probably punch a dragon is like "Oh, no, low level warrior dude, please help. These level 12 gnolls have stolen my corn!"
Yeah, methinks that's the reason; Ultima Online (which initially went for full PvP but with the NPCs Guards providing protection in town) had a ton of troubles and issued patch after patch for two years, in a sort of arms race against PvPers that found loopholes about how to exploit the way NPCs acted. With the degree of realism LitRPG shows, methinks it's a fair bet that those games could likewise handle all that with a lot more realism; so the Shopkeeper could be Level 1, and Guards level 100 (to avoid players killing the Shopkeeper with impunity), but for whatever reason the Guards don't give a rat's ass about the 10 rats the Shopkeerper needs killed (probably because the Shopkeeper can't pay the Guards' rates!), so that's where the players comes into play. Or there could be a ton of other consequences for abusing the "good" NPCs, that current games cannot model (like, you kill the Farmer NPCs, then other NPCs sent NPC bounty-hunters after you that are every bit as strong and, above all, intelligent, as the most cunning & experienced players, or that sort of things). Current games, not being nowhere near that advanced, just need some crutches to avoid an NPC slaugtherfest (like, as you point out, NPCs being sometimes stronger than the mobs you are supposed to kill in that area =)
That's a good point. I was being silly mostly because it always struck me as funny in "portal" style LitRPGs that it's very rarely addressed what everyone else's level is or how it works for "NPCs", etc. It's definitely something I'm personally trying to work out and balance that doesn't mean all "non players" are just always level 1 (which makes no sense) but also doesn't make it super odd that the NPCs are all level 5 when the "players" managed to get to 10 in like...two chapters.
Well... as posted in your other thread, I get the feeling that it ain't a bad idea (at least not always, and/or at least not at first glance) to really go all-in with some of the current MMOs "failings" (or "silliness", as Windfall would put it?) when we translate those worlds to LitRPG; call it "the MMO aesthetics", if you will, but if for whatever current technical limitation MMOs nowadays work a certain way with certain limitation, methinks it's not instantly wrong to copy those exact same limitations in portal-style LitRPG. That argument, methinks, is not so solid in the "real game"-style LitRPG (when there's a real game, developed by some Devs, etc), in which probably some more thought need to be put, in my opinion, to how the future technology will actually lift those limitations... then again they may still remain as part of a certain aesthetic (just like nowadays we have "retro" games with pixel art that resemble low-budget games of a decade or two ago, or the renaissance of isometric RPGs like Pillars of Eternity and such). Well, they may very well be Level 100 Shopkeepers with really, really high Bargain, Inventory Keeping and Accounting skills! =) But, on that front, yeah, not sure it can be fixed; in most RPGs and MMOs, you start so weak that you can get your lights knocked out with a leaf of lettuced, and not long after you are kicking Dragon butt with your epic gear, while NPCs probably have remained static... and a huge part of the fun is the level-up grind, so, yeah, not sure that particular problem can be solved (one of the reasons, methinks, that LitRPG needs to stick to some of the "silliness" that games need have in order to be fun, and that methinks tends to make a game's Lore a bit weaker, or at least goofier, than standard Fantasy's Lore).
Honestly as soon as my eyes have left the stat screen it disappears from my working memory; I don't pay attention to levels. Your guys' scenarios are making me want to read that in a book. Gnolls stealing my corn LOL
I think the levels' usefulness (just like in videogames) has a lot to do with "Showing vs. Telling" when it comes to facing foes. In videogames it's often all the showing you need to do (and sometimes all the showing you can do) to let players know they are about to get into a fight they cannot win, or that they may be able to win with a bit of luck, or that should be a cakewalk unless they screw up badly. In that aspect, LitRPG's writing can actually be very, very terse ("Holy shit! That is a level 50 Orc!", said the level 10 Fighter), and stats/levels (sometimes seen as "just a way for authors to pad the book", and rightly so IMHO) can pack a lot of showing in a very low wordcount. (That is, in a way, what stats & game mechanics do in actual games: stats/levels show to players what game mechanics will probably do under the hood, allowing for strategic choices). But with LitRPG having, on the whole hand, access the whole bag of tricks literature has for showing (Holy shit, the Fighter thought, that has to be the largest, most muscular Orc I've ever seen. The first wearing full plate armor, too, and carrying as if it were a silk shirt to boot...) , and always working under the assumption the game, hardware & software are quantum leaps above our current tech, then levels may be a bit too archaic a mechanic to be used. Still, on ground of them packing a lot of info (if done right), and on grounds of aesthetics, methinks they can work pretty well. Hey, them gnolls be a pest, I tells you!
Hey, corn theft is a serious problem in MMO-world! It's not like corn magically grows-- Wait a minute...
Very good points. And yes, the fact it's a bit "silly" is actually part of the fun for me. I mean, for the Jumanji movie, part of the fun was the silly limitations and stuff. Like who the heck blows up from eating cake? And being instantly killed by a mosquito bite in the jungle? Who in the world would go to the jungle if that was true?! So I don't necessarily mind some "failings" in there if it's not done so over-the-top you have to groan and roll your eyes. Well, unless it's a book that's clearly a parody or just plain being super silly for the humor of it. Which isn't bad at all! That's actually something I was kind of addressing in the system I'm trying to work out now. The difference between 'Hero Classes' and 'Civilian Classes' for lack of better words at the moment. That people who basically 'stay at home' or have 'everyday jobs' have decent levels, but they're levels that are very specific to their jobs. Like Farmers with lots of skill in Cultivation, Plowing, etc. or Shopkeepers with the same skills you mentioned. Which explains why they need 'Heroes' around; like real life people call police, the military, etc. to deal with things simply because they lack the training, ability, and equipment to handle those situations.
My whole game setting was created by Heaven and Hell as a place to settle disputes. A lot of things in it are obviously staged and the NPCs and PCs know it, but they all play along. I've got hero classes and regular classes as well. Some NPC's are hero classes and some are regulars. The hero classes are balanced with each other and powerful, the regular classes are not balanced and typically weaker.
