How much better are current core produced weapons than noncore?

Discussion in 'Debates & Discussions' started by Dragon, Sep 12, 2020.

  1. Dragon

    Dragon Level 16 (Paladin) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    1) + 10% chance of an item of a given quality being automatically upgraded to a higher quality once completed.
    2) Elementum Bonus: Weapons have + 10% damage to spell barriers. Each piece of armor has a + 2% resistance to a specific type of magic determined by the properties of your Forge.
    3) Each Magic Forge will have a specific character based upon the location where it has been created. The movement of heavenly bodies are now clearly seen by you, even in the light of day. Based upon which cosmic alignments are present above, there is a small chance of the weapon or armor obtaining certain powers.

    It seems to me that only real advantage a non-enchanted core weapons has over a comparable weapon (same quality level, same schematic, similar smith skill levels, etc) is the extra 10% damage to spell barriers and the small chance of gaining a bonus trait from the movement of heavenly bodies.

    Added to that advantage is the fact that the variety of enchantments available likely beats that of most enchanters outside of Rione and the six other forge owning factions. Well and those factions that have powerful enchanters guilds.


    Idle speculation :)
    One of the biggest advantages Richter has currently over his rivals in Rione and Yves is the bonus trait against magical shields. 10% isn't much, but if he researched Elementum Bonus to Spell Barriers I and leveled the Forge with the token every weapon would be dealing an additional 30% damage against magical shields. Even the most unskilled initiate would be cranking out mage slayer weapons.

    Once the village has researched part II and III Elementum Bonus to Spell Barriers I imagine they could take a bite out of the weapons market simply due to even their cheapest weapon having such a powerful barrier-breaking trait.
     
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  2. PokemonThug

    PokemonThug Level 13 (Assassin) Roleplaying Exiles Citizen

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    1. With research of the Auspicious times, Chance of special powers and upgrades to items made is mostly certain. So The value of a core building increases with levels very much so.

    Also not only the weapon get new properties, improves its quality and class, but also can change the entire metal of the weapon: moonstone -> darkstone.

    Also Does any forge can lean enchantments on only the magic core forges? I don't think we could easily sac enchanted items to a basic forge ?!
    2. So A core building should have a better chance at absorbing those enchantments at very least.

    I think we really should make a priority to level up Krom and get some schematics for him, to lvl up the Forge quicker.
    dungeon diving, mining, forging and Life magicking routine is required lol

    Ancestral Ring of the Hardings
    122 points
    The Harding family were a series of smiths that served the Green Tear Dynasty prior to the 4th Cataclysm. The blood of titans intermixed with the blood of the fey folk to form their short-lived race, the Elowyn. Though they are long extinct in The Land, some of their weapons and armor survive even eons later. The Hardings were among the greatest families of the lost Elowies.
    This ancestral ring was passed down through generations of their family, absorbing the blood, sweat and life energy of these titan descendants. So much power was passed through this item that it awakened a life of its own, some even say a consciousness. Any worthy smith wearing this ring will be able to mold almost any metal and will enjoy a drastic increase in their chances to make higher quality weapons and armor.
    Offering Class: Epic

    I'm thinking +10 -20 % increase in quality? based in the Smith probably.. But we could get a lower class ring of say at least +4% to weapon quality for Krom.
     
  3. S'ahelas

    S'ahelas Level 7 (Cutpurse) Exiles Citizen

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    The main advantage of a magic core forge was the ability for the forge to learn enchantments, allowing for the construction of enchanted item and which results in a chance for the smith at the forge to learn the enchantments. (Does a smith need skills in enchanting as well as smithing? I gotta look this up).

    Otherwise the only way to learn an enchantment as a smith for a weapon or piece of armor was to train with a master or adept smith for many years. As an enchanter there would probably be more options but teaching these enchantments must be difficult; I’m not sure we have seen a mechanism for it yet. New enchantments must be excruciatingly slow to discover.

    By contrast everyone who works the main anvil of the forge can easily learn all the forges enchantments. The forge learns every enchantment done there, and as Ritcher is an essence enchanter and a high level spell caster (two rare skills and probably a very infrequent combination) he can create an abundance of new enchantments. In addition there’s the possibility the forge learns enchantments from breaking down item. So the breadth of enchantments and the ability of all smith workers to know the enchantments means there can be a large and diverse number of enchanted items.

    The other bonuses— the ability for a metal or upgrade or the quality to increase or a magic power to be bestowed— are rare. It’s when the stars align, literally. This can create a few more powerful items, tho it’s unclear the specific advantage. With the dungeon powerful items could be just as frequently dropped.

    And then there is the 2 percent bonus and 10 percent bonus. At market these could be a slight enough competitive edge to make the most village a massive amount of money. Tho in and of itself these seem like lesser advantages than the enchantments layer upon the items.

    We don’t know what happens when the forge levels. It it increases everything by an order of magnitude or linearly or has other unique bonuses. Extrapolating a little: the magic cauldron has a %00.08 chance to upgrade the potion to give a permanent state increase. I could see this increasing to 00.8 at level two. So the forge may increase the bonuses by a large value.
     
  4. Dragon

    Dragon Level 16 (Paladin) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Most enchanters are likely crafters of some form in addition to their primary craft. It would give them access to cheap objects that can
    be enchanted and sold, hopefully with enough profit to cover production costs.

    Logically to gain the skill enchanting, you need to be able to learn an enchantment. Skillbooks exist and there are various other shortcuts, but there has to be a way to learn enchanting without one.

    Amongst dwarves its expected that an enchanter smith will serve for several years for each enchantment. This is not entirely a one-way street as the indentured dwarf gets food, a place to sleep and a chance to improve their skills without needing to worry about survival, all while also picking up tricks of the trade from the more experienced enchanter smith. Not a bad system if you can expect to live the better part of a millenia at level 1.

    Humans are on the guild system. I imagine that enchantments can be bought if you are a guild member in good standing, has kissed enough ass and have the funds to pay for it.

    New enchantments are likely the fruit of research by a scholar and enchanter duo once the appropriate research branch has been unlocked. So somewhere around tier 10, a little below runes.
     
  5. Dragon

    Dragon Level 16 (Paladin) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    I don't think the enchantments will be of as much value as people think. Yes Richter has a greater variety of enchantments, and obviously they will be much more attractive than plain steel weapons. But they also have to compete with other enchanter smiths that have mastered the use of a smaller, specialised set of enchantments that they know precisely how to work to max effect.

    The mageslayer trait on the other hand is unrivaled, its a unique bonus that its unlikely any of the other magical forges has.
     
  6. ShoughtLoud

    ShoughtLoud Level 14 (Defender) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Outside of buying talents, they don't get any more damage out of them than anyone else, they don't pay less soul points to put them in, they just have smaller pool of usable enchantments

    I guess to boil it down, what do you mean "to max effect" and what prevents Richter from seeing a combo he likes and replicating it with minimal effort on his part?
     
  7. Dragon

    Dragon Level 16 (Paladin) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    What I mean is that if I was trading years of indentured service for each enchantment, I would make sure that the enchantments I work for have high synergy with each other and that they allow me to specialize into making a subset of weapons or gear that are as powerful as possible. That way I would try to work around the drawback of having a smaller pool of enchantments to choose from, and could still expand that pool in the future if more enchantments become available. A simple strategy would be focusing on a few flat base damage increasers as well as earth enchantments and maybe something extremely specialised such as an enchantment of earth elemental or goblin slaying.

    As for max effect, Richter has created swords of beastslaying and similar odd weapons that make very little sense. He has failed to think his enchanting designs through, especially with his dual enchantments where he combines multiple elemental damage types. It gives the weapons some extra versatility, but at the same time it costs them in max potential.

    Richter can replicate a combo he likes. That's one advantage of the Forge. Doesn't change the fact that he will be competing against other enchanters that will be putting weapons on the market that are as good or better than his.
     
  8. Andrew Lynas

    Andrew Lynas Level 15 (Guardian) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Beast Slaying Weapons make great Sense, after all at the very least they help Hunters to hunt, but they a great help for everybody with the Animals and Beasts becoming more powerful (even before Monsters) and especially with his Dungeon being a Beast Dungeon.
    Plus he doesn't seem to have anymore of a limit to the number of Enchantments he can learn then he does the number of Spells that he can learn. So he can afford to Learn all the Enchantments he can and it allows him to experiment. After all he isn't yet at the point where he is able to truly try and Sell his Weapons.
     
  9. ShoughtLoud

    ShoughtLoud Level 14 (Defender) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Just before I get going, is this under the assumption that you would be working in a core forge?
     
  10. Dragon

    Dragon Level 16 (Paladin) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Point on the usefullness of beast slaying. I Never said beast slaying weapons were bad. But this is an odd combination of traits to put on a mace (i remembered it wrong).

    Its basically designed to slay beasts, foes wielding weapons and air/crystalline creatures in addition to the shatter effect. Had Richter focused on beast slaying instead he could be holding a weapon with +106% to Damage vs Beasts on every strike. It would be much more useful against the creatures of the Dungeon than sonic damage and most beasts cannot be disarmed.

    Of course its also less versatile, so that's a tradeoff right there.
     
  11. Dragon

    Dragon Level 16 (Paladin) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    No regular forge.
     
  12. ShoughtLoud

    ShoughtLoud Level 14 (Defender) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    I agree that maybe his dual enchanted creations might not always be maximum synergy, but I disagree otherwise.

    First, by practicing all available enchantments, he gets better ranks due to his forge making him a more rounded out enchanter. By practicing them in ways where they don't mesh together well he might even increase his enchanting skill more due to their discordant natures. He had failed to do a combo life and death enchantment, but I'd wager something like that is exceptionally difficult and more worth practicing due to the difficulty, which should allow him to train his skill faster. An air/ Earth combo likely is as difficult, but against anything that isn't an air or earth elemental, both parts would do solid damage (like the lightning prisms in the tefonim training grounds). Also by doing this, and with the forge, Richter will have the ability in the future to take any combo he does see and improve it many times over with his higher ranked versions of the enchantments. Without a forge, the others can have the most synergistic combo of all time, but a sword they made ten years ago with the combo and a sword they made today would have the same stats only adjusted for any increase in their base smithing or enchanting skills. A combo with percentages (goblin slaying) could take some slightly more advantage of the base skill increases but a combo with a freeze enchantment will essentially have the same effect as the older sword.

    Second, it assumes that you are able to have an unlimited number of enchantments under your belt which I find unlikely. More likely to follow the spell path where there is a limit that can be expanded but a limit none the less. You might not even be able to learn certain enchantments outright. Richter should spend a chapter with Gloran. Or three. It also assumes that there is a big enough pool for you to go picking and choosing. What if the local smiths only have base increases or a combo that doesn't appeal to you/ you might not be able to learn just due to nature? As for synergistic enchantments, that only applies to dual enchanters, which as far as we know (or at least have seen) is only available through the enchanter profession. If it is enchanter exclusive, then you're stuck with single enchantments which might work well together but now you can only put on one at a time/ have to spread them out over the full outfit rather than doubling down on each piece.

    To sum up, I disagree that they are able to more effectively "focus" on certain enchantments because it implies access to a large enough pool that they can pick and choose rather than being grateful for whichever was deemed appropriate, with another underlying assumption that there aren't any limits to the kinds of enchantments you can learn (be it number or type). Also, if their pool is selective, through let's say research, then not only does everyone around you have that combo, but practicing these few enchantments does not do anything for you to put them ahead of other users of the same enchantments, unless you are using a core forge, which defeats the purpose of the entire argument.
     
  13. ShoughtLoud

    ShoughtLoud Level 14 (Defender) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Can you dual enchant with the same enchantment?
    If not I'd say he likely just only had the rank to get beast slaying to 53%, and filled the rest with some damage that can effect most things. Shatter works on skulls as of the hellish mauler so not a terrible enchantment to add to it.
     
  14. Dragon

    Dragon Level 16 (Paladin) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    1) Its true there are some major training advantages to odd combinations of elements. But if we're talking trade value, the higher the stats the higher the price people will pay. Most will prefer weapons that work really well against a given segment of enemies over weapons with a small edge against a bunch of different groups.

    I agree such weapons won't change much over time, because the smith's knowledge is fairly limited. Eventually they will be overtaken by forge trained smiths as well as those with big enchanters guilds behind them. In addition to those enchanters who know how to create enchantments.

    2)
    I don't think there is much of a limitation on number or type of enchantments you can learn (i suppose you could need the elemental affinity, but if so it has never been implied). Spells are limited only in what you can have ready to cast, but you can still store them in your grimoire until you need them. The spell limit is basically there to limit the versatility and power of mages.


    3)
    Before accepting a contract or vow to serve for years i'd make sure that the enchantment I get in return has high synergy with the enchantments I already have or is at least somewhat useful. If a given enchanter smith cannot offer me something that fits my needs, I would politely move on to someone who can. Though before approaching I would already have done my best to learn precisely what enchantments said enchanter smith can offer in return for my services.

    If no one in the vicinity can offer what I need, i would travel further afield in search of a teacher.

    There are six other magical forges in the peninsula according to Krom, one of which is the inferno forge in Rione, all of which should have access to enchantment pools larger than the one in the village. From there they undoubtedly spread.

    4)
    That's certainly true. But a forge trained nonprofessed enchanter is stuck at one enchantment per piece as well. Might be a slightly stronger enchantment though.
     
  15. ShoughtLoud

    ShoughtLoud Level 14 (Defender) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Ok, but that means they can only work in one corner of the market, and someone like Richter can vastly out pace them. This argument boils down to Richter needs to learn what the market demands are, not that some other Smith is gonna have better synergy because they only have a select few enchantments.

    It will absolutely be stronger because as long as it isn't a static enchantment like "+1 damage or defense" they can rank it up infinitely. Or down if the case should arise.

    Tough to say really and nothing we can draw from so meh.

    Well look at mister money bags over here able to look around for a couple months to a couple years and travel safely. Also good luck on pledging yourself to who ever owns the various magic forges and being able to see family regularly. Not that it isn't possible, just not many are gonna have the starting funds or fighting prowess to accomplish these somewhat lengthy endeavors.
     
  16. Andrew Lynas

    Andrew Lynas Level 15 (Guardian) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    #ShoughtLoud, that's an good idea about trying to Dual Enchant the same Enchantment, might be worth trying out to see if it's possible, although would probably be a good idea to be wearing Armour when you try it out the first few times.

    #Dragon, interesting idea about your Affinities effecting what Enchantments you can Learn. Would like to see if that's true or not, although it could be that you might just get a reduced effectiveness in using Enchantments that you don't have an Affinity for rather then just being unable to Learn them, which would explain why Richter has never had a Notification about this because of his Limitless Affinity in all Magics and Elements?

    Richter was unable to Duel Enchant something with both Life and Death Enchantments, I'm wondering if there might not be a Higher Tier Enchantment Talent that might allow adding Opposing Elements to the same thing, or for that matter if Richter was to gain a Talent that allowed the Triple Enchanting of an object that if he was to use a third Enchantment that was between the two Opposing Elements that it might work as a Buffer and allow it? Although the former (Talent for allowing Opposing Enchantments on one object) is the more likely.
     
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  17. Hastur

    Hastur Level 9 (Burgler) Exiles Citizen

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    Richter is likely one of the few if not only essence enchanters in the land. Being able to convert ANY spell into an enchant. That alone is the whole kit and kaboodle. He also already knows he can buy the scaling talent. Not likely any of the other forges will have that.
     
  18. Dragon

    Dragon Level 16 (Paladin) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Basic funds wouldn't be an issue for someone who choses a profession as expensive as that of the enchanter.

    1)
    Precisely. You nail down one corner of the market, securing sufficient income to live off of and grow as an enchanter smith. From thre you expand your capabilities and strive to become a professed enchanter so you get access to talents that can help you rise higher. Success in this manner would take effort and time, lots and lots of time. But someone willing to trade decades for an enchantment clearly has the patience to grow steadily.

    2)
    Where do you get the idea it will rise up infinitely? Even if it does its likely to take exponentially longer to rise it. Meanwhile the guy who learned it starts with rank 6 enchantments while you are struggling to rise the rank from 1. If you have the time you will overtake, but there are advantages and disadvantages to both approaches. Obviously the core forge is the better option though.

    3)
    Not sure I said anything about pledging to the people that own the forges or the smiths that work there. The enchantments would trickle down to smiths pledged to serve those that do work the forge and from there onward. There would be other forges in a city with a magical forge, places owned by journeymen or adepts that would be glad to take on free labor (well I suppose not entirely free, but a mat in a corner of the workshop and a bit of food is hardly a high price for a dedicated worker) for a few years in return for an enchantment or two.

    Returning home wouldn't be a thing a dwarf willing to invest decades working his way would have on his mind. Its the equivalent of a human having to work his way up for a few years, learning as they go.
     
  19. Dragon

    Dragon Level 16 (Paladin) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Any spell? So will more advanced versions of heal give the same basic enchantment or different versions?

    Richter could put any number of enchantments on the market. But how long will it take before they end up in the other forges as well? Buying enchanted weapons and armor is what Richter himself does, so he can hardly claim copyright infringement or similar transgressions without being a hypocrit.

    The same is true for the larger pools of enchantments owned by other forges, they will trickle into the FOH over time. At least the ones put on the public markets. Gotta keep the best for themself and their allies.
     
  20. ShoughtLoud

    ShoughtLoud Level 14 (Defender) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    You didn't, by your phrasing I had assumed you meant to work in said forges for extended periods/ mainly, which unless you're pledging, not gonna happen. To much value to let you walk out the door after they train you up.

    Trickle out of the magic forges? into the forges that aren't core? No. Not at a price of 100 gold per day. I have to assume that the price of their weapons are equally unrealistic in such cases (not 100 gold but something unrealistic for a similarly enchanted piece minus the forge specific benefits) and that would only help if you were already a professed enchanter with the specific talents for break down and learning, which if I recall are not great starting percentages.

    In the very specific case of a dwarf with a high enough affinity to dual profess, and not instead specialize and focus in smithing, then maybe, but with so few enchantments this 'corner' of the market its basically on a circle.

    Fair, all I was saying there is that you do have to commit, so unless you are already quite wealthy or noble of some sort, your limited support system is gone. No phones, no western union money transfers, just you and what you have in your pockets.

    Unknown. Won't know unless he tries it with minor slow heal anytime soon or finds a book on enchanting lore.
     




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