Money - rambling thoughts

Discussion in 'Debates & Discussions' started by Dragon, Sep 10, 2020.

  1. Dragon

    Dragon Level 16 (Paladin) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Richter could do a lot of things with more cash, such as attract new settlers, establish a trade network, build up an army, pay for future campaigns, hire mercenaries, build up new territories, win allies, start a number of public works and the list goes on. Its hard to imagine a downside to having money as a country. The problem is that while the mist village has assets worth millions in gold (the core buildings and the Dungeon), those assets currently do not generate much of a revenue stream. Rather they are an economic drain.

    1) The forge of heavens currently has the manufacturing capacity to produce multiple weapons or a few suits of armor every day with free extra traits for weapons. 10% extra damage to spell barriers isn't much, but its a free trait. In addition, they have the crystal mine and a few enchanters, which means every single product could in theory be enchanted.

    As of this moment none of the products are being sold off to cover the costs of running the forge, instead Richter covers the costs of producing everything from mundane plows to enchanted Kindir slingshots. Even the trade treaty with the sprites does not bring in as much as a bent cobber.

    In addition to the mine itself not generating revenue, there are the costs of running the crystal mine (crystal gatherers) and the regular mine (miners and guards patrolling it).

    2) The cauldron currently has the capability to mass-produce potions. Its really understaffed though, and lacks the raw materials to keep the handfull of alchemists and their students working full time. The forge has barely stayed ahead of current village needs, it cannot provide the sprite allies with potions, let alone spare some for trade.

    In addition to the cauldron not generating revenue, there are the costs of manning the fields and other facilities used in herb production.

    3) The Dungeon. This is arguably Richter's biggest moneymaker. The more people enter it on a daily basis the better. But to attract those people and to squeeze them for as much money as he can he needs a huge array of services, such as whores, bars, merchants of every sort, a market, a housing district for adventurers, guard stations, etc. None of that currently exists, and the taxation is minimal. I wouldn't be surprised if the cost of manning the guardpost is greater than the income from the Dungeon currently. Once people start Dungeon diving there should be some additional revenue, but it would mostly be villagers risking their lives for copper, silver coins or pieces of trashy loot. With the village currently taking 10%, they'll be earning less than a gold per day for a long time.

    Currently the Dungeon is marginally profitable at best. In six months to a year it should help to offset expenses significantly.


    Meanwhile the village is bleeding money and the day they default on basic salaries draw ever closer.


    So what's the good solution (hoping for a windfall isn't a strategy), a loan from the dwarves or the banks perhaps? Given the economic potential of Richter's assets the dwarves/ banks would know the village is good for it. The interest could be dear, but better to borrow the money needed to pay the bills and for future expansion, than go bankrupt.

    Edit:
    He could also start selling promisory notes with a due date a year later to the villagers in order to raise cash. Its not like they have a lot of places to spend their money anyway.
     
  2. ShoughtLoud

    ShoughtLoud Level 14 (Defender) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    I mean, if 4 silver is their standard bi-weekly paycheck, less than a gold per day has a lot of wiggle room to be very profitable for them. Also they're getting the 10% on auto, they still plan on getting the 50% tax as was standard in Yves.

    Have the A-team, with Basil in tow, dive through the dungeon and then Labyrinth to get a node road to any other major settlement. His biggest commodity right now is the potions of clarity since he can sell them in large batches for a lot of cash up front. He can also sell forge or cauldron things but I wouldn't recommend it yet. If he can manage to find HoEH then perfect because he's already got contacts and a business relation with Hafiz. If not there, then any other major settlement will likely be able to accomplish the same thing. This also gives him the option to by things like ingredients for potions in bulk while he works on getting his gethering operations up.

    Now that they can make their own bags of holding, they don't need carts and ships and stuff (though those will also be useful for other reasons. They can just have basil jump to the settlement of the day and trade what's needed.

    In time if relations with these other settlements rise to appropriate levels, they can be talked into building portals, allowing more trade between the peoples instead of just between the village, which will give the village economy a bit more stability.

    The obvious problem for this is lead times. Getting through the Labyrinth to another settlement, doing it again to get a variety of settlements (diversifying buying and selling power), having the time to do this while the village is almost constantly in the middle of some new crisis.

    Richter has all he needs except for time on his side.
    • Easily sellable thing that aost no one else will have abundant/cheap access to, but not just that one thing
    • Way(s) of transporting large amounts of things quickly over vast distances that can't be followed back to the village (yet)
    • A decently leveled trader that he trusts /can trust
    • Opportunities that will attract more people to stay in his village and bring money/value with them
     
  3. Dragon

    Dragon Level 16 (Paladin) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    I meant the village will be earning less than a gold, which is probably an understatement but not much of one.

    Before anyone says I am lowballing what can be earned in a Dungeon, here is the total earnings from Richter clearing an entire lair with his party of highlevels, a place few if any villagers would be able to take.


    Except for the Koran Tusker that was level 20+.



    From Richter's experience of having to kill 50 monsters of level 12-14 to earn one silver and nine coppers, each adventurer in a party of six would have to kill an average one hundred monsters to earn 4 silvers. Which means the party in question would have to go through 600 monsters every diving day. I'd guess 100-200 monsters at their own level would be a good showing for the average level 15 band of adventurers. That would land them a little more than a silver each, before paying Richter's 50% tax and their own expenses.

    Edit: Once they advance a little further up the levels and can take on bigger challenges they should start seeing a bit more money. The longer they have to spend in the Dungeon fighting the more chance the Dungeon has of them losing.


    Even assuming they earn 4 silver per day:

    Say they put together 30-40 (they don't have anything near that at the moment) qualified adventurers capable of earning 4 silvers per diving day, that's 120 - 160 silver in total. If they all dive every day the village would be taking 1-2 gold, or alternatively 6-8 gold if we assume a 50% tax rate.


    I also think its more likely they will dive every other day or less often than that, they would need time to decompress and relax after risking their lives all day, not to mention time to spend their earnings on whores, booze, training and gear. Wealth and the high life would be prime motivators for many of the people that enter a Dungeon.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2020
  4. Dragon

    Dragon Level 16 (Paladin) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    The bags Richter makes are severely limited in terms of space. You also need to carry the entire weight.

    Ironscorpion Pouch as a Bag of Holding

    Item Class: Rare
    Quality: Exceptional
    Durability: 170/170
    Weight: 0.7 kg + total weight of items
    Traits: Can hold a large number of items in a 6x6 grid
    Thinking of a desired object will retrieve it from the bag.
    Any stored poisons will gain a corrosive effect over time Bonus Trait: 1 bottle of Enhanced Ironspine Scorpion Corrosive Venom will be produced every 7 days.

    This bag is made from rare expensive materials and has the carrying capacity of a shipping crate that costs a couple of silvers.
     
  5. Dragon

    Dragon Level 16 (Paladin) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    A node road would be great. Its also very difficult and dangerous to establish such a road due to the dangers of the Labyrinth. Randy tells Richter that


    No doubt they will eventually create such a road (the first one likely to Yves, given Randy has asked for this as a boon), but it could take years.
     
  6. Dragon

    Dragon Level 16 (Paladin) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Good points on the exp potions, that's a profitable trade in a great novelty item and its something highlevels/ rich people will want due to the increase in exp. I think that spring will start drying up eventually, but for now its a great source of potions.

    Unless production in the forge and cauldron are scaled up significantly I don't think they can afford to be selling wares for now. If they do have surplus, the HT would be the natural buyer.
     
  7. ShoughtLoud

    ShoughtLoud Level 14 (Defender) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    All this is based on the old drops, given the specialty bonus to chests and his bonuses (reliquaries of the Labyrinth) and the dungeon growing in level (which increases how much it can concentrate mana into drops) I expect drops will be much improved in further dungeon dives

    For now, but even so 36 spaces is nothing to scoff at. Couple more tps into appropriate talents and he'd have yet another export and vastly improved utility. He could use regular leather too, but he's using what he's got for now. Off the top of my head, high quality mats he will have when back in the village: Silk from the assengai queen, threads from the celestial cocoon that Elora and her brood hatched from, Rock giant skin if Beyan doesn't need it all, skin from the various monsters around the village which will likely have new properties with all the evolutions, mist root threads.

    I doubt years but I'd give it a month or two of time spent in the Dungeon /Labyrinth with time between nodes regrouping back in the village. It's an investment, and doing it once should allow them to do it again a little faster (knowing sometimes where the nodes will be) with other traders. Doesn't change that it's a month(s) they don't have because of constant crises but in a world where they had the luxury of time it would be accomplishable relatively quickly.

    Definitely should investigate a safe "rate" to draw from the spring.

    (Cauldron) For now no, production is low, but that's due to how fast it can pump out potions. It's a bottleneck problem. With access to markets with reasonably priced herbs though it could start a bit of back and forth buying ingredients and selling potions before getting off the ground fully. There wouldn't be as much profit but while they wait for their own herb production to take off (which with all the sprites coming in, the various growth bonuses etc it will) it is still an eminent cash cow with a professed herbalist in there cranking out potions in batches of fifty. Not to mention being able to increase production through adding specialized growing places, extra cauldrons, new potions etc.

    (Forge) Too busy trying to outfit the village as is, but eventually they'll be done with that and working on improving things, so the replaced weapons can be repaired and sold in the markets since they'll be getting better versions in the hands of their own people. Should happen somewhat soon after the expansion of production with: a new main anvil, 3 secondary anvils, and another Hearth. More hands make less work, and they got plenty of hands for the Forge.
     
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  8. Andrew Lynas

    Andrew Lynas Level 15 (Guardian) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Be useful if they could find a Nice Road to the Twins and Raudian(sp?), they could use it for fast transporting low weight, small sized merchandise and items, the same for Law and anywhere else.
     
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  9. Dragon

    Dragon Level 16 (Paladin) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    1)
    Reliquiaries of the Labyrinth likely gives access to a much wider range of rewards (maybe even anything the Labyrinth can offer if the challenge overcome is great enough). That's how I read it, access to more stuff.

    I doubt its going to give massively better rewards for the same job.

    2) 36 spaces is great. But once we start talking trade, we're talking a lot of mass and items. Richter would have to spend the equivalent of thousands of gold on materials to produce the bags after which he would still need a ship to carry them from place to place as even with his own high-end luxury bag he needs to carry 10% of the weight. It also has a limited amount of inventory space, especially for an arms dealer where every weapon takes a slot.

    Sell the bags of holding to those who can afford to use premium carrying and use ships or wagons for carrying wares - its what I would do at least. You are going to get a lot more carrying capacity for the same price and no one has to drag a 100 kilo purse around.


    3) The labyrinth is everchanging and does not correspond to the Land dimension. To find a different Dungeon requires grit, courage, determination, luck and plenty of time to explore because the entrance could be anywhere. We are told that adventurers that manage to establish a single route can live a life of luxury ferrying goods back and forth.

    I say it'll take years. Decades for most people, much less for Richter.

    4) The main benefit is that its cheaper to produce due to less manpower in the cauldron. But it still takes the same amount of resources. I agree the Cauldron is going to be profitable if they ever get to the point where it outproduces their own and their allies need.

    But it isn't there yet. It could take years before it outpaces their other needs.

    5) Much like the cauldron, except it cannot massproduce. On the other hand gear lasts a long time. Could be profitable if they ever get ahead of the ever growing domestic need as well as that of their allies. They are nowhere near the point where every adult villager has a suit of armor and weapons they can use to help defend the village. I'm not even sure the entire militia has been decked out yet. After that they can started on the kindir - vassalage has its perks - and the allied sprites, though that should definitely bring compensation.

    One of the big issues is that the forge is understaffed (no night or morning shift. Work should never stop completely in a core building) and smiths have to double as miners. Its similar to the Cauldron in that it cries for not just more workers but also for more highly skilled smiths.
     
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  10. ShoughtLoud

    ShoughtLoud Level 14 (Defender) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    I thought it would be increased drop rate, like how more Labyrinth monsters dropped reliquaries than his monsters. So still shitty drops from shitty kills but slightly more of them. Because if he just gets to cheat and have the loot pool of the Labyrinth why sacrifice anything to the Dungeon, loses its luster.
    My point about these was in respect to having a trader with access to a node road. Instant transport means he can make many trips with less and still trade at a phenomenal pace. Yes more Cadillac bags and barges and carts are better for off loading in one go, but with the rate of transmission you don't need to, because you can put in another order and have some extras by the next business day.

    Agree to disagree but I think the main part is just being able to survive and then move through an area where level 97 behemoth monsters with outrageous magical defenses and tons of new traps are abundant. Most don't do it because most can't do it. Those that can do it likely are already powerful or wealthy in some other way. Regular dungeons are hard enough and the Labyrinth adds on major qualifiers. So most likely walk in, see what's going on, then nope the f**k out and stick to their dungeon. Whereas the few that do it are likely already powerful enough or not interested enough in being what amounts to a freight car for money full time. I'm sticking to months, but again, agree to disagree.

    4)&5) large enough population, or an influx of nocturnal villagers, I'm sure they'll get past that loss of efficiency.
     
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  11. Dragon

    Dragon Level 16 (Paladin) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    3) We have a direct quote from Randy that only a few manage it, just saying.

    But yeah lets agree to disagree

    4 and 5) Is a matter of time. That they don't have.
     
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  12. Gurston

    Gurston Level 6 (Footpad) Exiles Citizen

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    He added a still to the Cauldron and got a new feature, I wonder if he could add this to the Dragons Caulron when he gets back as a storage space that makes poisions created stronger and automatically produces some, would it blend with the Cauldrons own ability. i.e. the posion creation if synergistic with the duplication and make 10 (1+9 duplicates) a week, and the corrosive over time is synergistic with the Cauldrons potions get stronger over time effect
     
  13. Captain BlackJack

    Captain BlackJack Level 14 (Defender) Exiles Citizen

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    Mist Villages money situation has been played upon in this series several times. Ricther is fearful of running out of supplies and money. I really don’t think it’s that big of a problem. As long as Ricther can make his payments to his employees everything else will work out.

    A very wise man once told me all wealth comes from one of three places. It can be grown from the earth, mined from the earth, or made from the first to sources.

    Ricther has mines that have been very productive and becoming more so with the his efforts.

    Ricther has a phenomenal agricultural ability to produce crops.

    Ricther also developed an unbelievable magical forge and cauldron for a manufacturing base. Can he do better with these facilities? Most certainly he could utilize 8 hour shifts in both areas.

    Ricthers temporary short fall in commodities and skilled labor has prevented full production. These areas should be rectified very shortly. When the crops are finally gathered there will be extra hands relieved temporarily. All the farmers can be reallocated for winter labor. Their won’t be as great a need for hunters as well. Plus Ricthers village population as about to at least double in size.

    The lack of coinage shouldn’t necessarily be seen as a problem. A village full of commodities can always barter. Bartering has been the norm around the world at different times. A mixed economy of bartering and coinage can evolve quickly to pure coinage as time progresses.

    Markets are key to any economies of scale. Richter does need to develop his own markets for Mist Village goods. Foreign markets often yield higher profits but are more difficult to reach. Ricther has worked considerably on market transportations these systems are not complete as of now.
    Ricther has constructed his first ship for water transportation and it should be sailing soon. Ricther has started on his own portal system and he has yet to create his own node roads to other areas.

    At this time Ricther should start working on market areas for his village. A river market would be a great start. Personally I would like to see Ricther build a dungeon market. He also needs a local market.

    A river market would grant river traders access to Mist Village goods without them needing to enter the mist village. It would allow for a commercial exchange by barter or coinage. As the river peninsula has a elaborate river system it would likely have an existing river trade. A river market would allow Ricther access to that existing market. Most of the people in the river system will not have immediate access to portals nor a node road by dungeon.

    A dungeon market could help Ricther buy sale or trade for higher level items found in the dungeon. Adventurers needing/wanting higher grade equipment wouldn’t need to know it was produced by a magic forge in the village. Besides anonymity the dungeon market would allow the Mist Village to trade or purchase undesired and duplicate magical items that adventurers find. It would also offer all adventurers a place to rest and resupply without having to leave the dungeon. In places like Yves leaving and re entering the dungeon could be costly.

    As as all the villagers needs are being met by Lord Ricther their need for a market isn’t as strong. In time they will certainly need a market for their needs as well. The first two markets should help bring in the much needed currencies. A local market that functions on real currency would generate strong income from taxation. The velocity of money shouldn’t be underestimated. I think soon after Mama arrives Ricther will build a market of some type.

    At this time Ricthers manufacturing base is being stymied due to three reasons. The number one reason being that he needs the necessary commodities to run full capacity. The second reason is the lack of skilled labor and the ability to staff three eight hour shifts. The final problem isn’t really the slow production of goods it’s the greater needed for the villagers and guards. At this time all of the Smiths production has been going to equip the Mist Village and the contract with the hearth Mother. The Glass Dragon Cauldrons supplies have been sapped several times as well. Not allowing for aging of potions are the sell of any products. It has basically only supplied the villages battle supplies. Things will change given supplies and skilled labor.

    The money machine is well on its way to moving the Mist Village out of the woods.

    Ricther could solve all of his gold needs by talking to a banker representative. Of course he should do it on his own terms.

    I’m going to laugh my tail off if the Imp ports Ricther to a bank. I could see Xuetrix doing it for the gold and relationship points just to have a piss at Ricther.
     
  14. Dragon

    Dragon Level 16 (Paladin) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Well it seems we are somewhat in agreement, Richter has the assets to generate a healthy cashflow but lacks the startup funds needed to entice more qualified workers to staff the cauldron and the forge, so that it can create a surplus available for trade. He also lacks a steady flow of sufficient raw materials to keep them running 24/7, though I reckon he doesn't need access to the larger world for that. He has his own mine, the Dungeon and the neighboring tribes that will almost certainly be glad to trade large quantities of raw materials in return for weapons and potions. Some will likely offer slaves or workers as well, similar to the treaty Richter has with the HT.

    So how do we get money? The banks are an option, but Randy really seemed against it. Its possible - though I find it unlikely - that the banks would seize the village in order to investigate the source of the new good. That more than a couple cores seems like a risk.

    Giving credit to @ShoughtLoud for bringing up the exp potions, they are definitely one shortterm solution.
    If he could get to law or another big city with a shipload of exp boosting potions, its likely he could get half a gold, maybe a full gold, for each. Rich people will want the boost and even poorer adventurers will want one just in case they finish a big quest.

    Probably only works once or twice before the market price starts dropping.

    Alternatively, Mama and Randy might be able to set Richter up with the right contacts to finance the village during its current expansion fase? Whitepearl company is also an option for a major loan. All of them will likely come with conditions, but its not necesarily a bad thing to have a tie with a major trade organisation that comes with certain obligations.
     
  15. Captain BlackJack

    Captain BlackJack Level 14 (Defender) Exiles Citizen

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    I don’t see Ricther needing a loan. He has a large group of skilled workers on their way to his village. Note they won’t all be high level but they will be mostly skilled. He will also have tons of raw resources himself. What he doesn’t have for the Cauldron the Hearth Mother will supply as an ally for a percentage of the potions.

    When the White Pearl Company comes back they will bring a nice lump sum in returns plus the gold loaned.

    As Ricther is questing he will continue to bring in loads of coins. The dungeon is going to start bringing in some gold directly to Ricther and by way of taxes. Ricther will also start getting taxation from his village and the kinder.

    The only people that I am aware of Ricther is needing to pay out are those whom had lost a family member. Isn’t everyone else getting paid at the end of their work contract. Wasn’t that the point of Ricther providing food and shelter for the first year?

    It might be he is paying his workers every fortnight but If so I don’t recall that.

    The only problems Ricther really has in my opinion are the enemies at his gates. After dealing with them he will have a housing crisis and perhaps a food crisis if Mamas caravan didn’t purchase enough supplies for the duration they need to get started.
     
  16. ShoughtLoud

    ShoughtLoud Level 14 (Defender) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Only if he's getting screwed
     
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  17. Captain BlackJack

    Captain BlackJack Level 14 (Defender) Exiles Citizen

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    If selling to Yves why not sell to the bugbears and goblins as well?

    I think the potions they did sell brought a gold a piece didn’t they?
     
  18. Dragon

    Dragon Level 16 (Paladin) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    They were sold to the white pearl company which has access to a large number of different buyers and markets at one gold per potion. The white pearl company probably takes 4 or 5 gold per potion, and ensures prices stay high by not selling too many in any one place.

    If Richter floods the market in Law with thousands of potions in order to raise some quick funds the price will drop. Even at a cost of 1 gold the potions will be mostly attractive to welloff adventurers, merchants and nobles, a limited market. Maybe an occasional crafter about to break through to the next tier in a skill will buy one as well.

    For most commoners 1 gold is the equivalent of 5 weeks of salary, but in reality, saving up an entire gold would take them far longer as they need money to cover their taxes and living expenses. Many likely live from salary to salary. If they do manage to put aside a bit of money investing it all in a one-use item instead of something that would allow them to live a slightly better life is just a bad idea.
     
  19. Dragon

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    Yves isn't the enemy of the village, they are a huge neighbor with supremacist policies. "Humans first" so to speak. Richter should trade with them because that trade will almost certainly benefit him more than it does Yves. There is no way he can openly confront Yves. Its like Iceland deciding to declare war on the US, sure they might win a couple battles - if they pick them right - but once the US realizes what is happening they would roll right over them.

    The goblins and bugbears are actively attempting to conquer the forest. They may or may not have a desire to corrupt it as well. If the mist village opens trade with them they are providing weapons and potions that will be used against them and other Nadrian tribes.
     
  20. ShoughtLoud

    ShoughtLoud Level 14 (Defender) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    He's not limited to just Law though. Yes that's currently the only place he has been, but since he can sell to haffiz in Law, there is no reason to sell to the general populace there. Between Haffiz (centrally located in Law), his trading warship, Basil, and the Dungeon (both him travelling out to places and adventurers coming to the mist village) he has enough to supply a steady income in the future, without flooding markets, and without getting screwed at 1 gold a pop
     
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