Money - rambling thoughts

Discussion in 'Debates & Discussions' started by Dragon, Sep 10, 2020.

  1. Dragon

    Dragon Level 16 (Paladin) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    So basically sell to Haffiz? Ok I could see that.

    Price of potions of clarity in the books.
    I knew they had been sold at some point, and they are in book 1 (maybe in book 4 as well when the brothers visit Richter, I haven't found a quote for that though), but a price is never mentioned as to what Hafiz paid for them. Its implied to be significant.

    We do have one guesstimate from Leandra
    I doubt Hafiz would pay 3 gold for a potion, he needs to ensure a return on investment. I'd say he'd go for somewhere between 1 and 2, likely closer to two depending on just how many potions Richter offers and how many he can sell.

    That's more than enough money for Richter to pay his debt.


    On a sidenote, as I was reading through some early parts of the books it struck me that the white pearl company and the Hafiz family in particular, have a much stronger bond to the godly side of things than most people. How likely is it that the destruction of the Lich, a worshiper of their sworn, religious enemies will strengthen the bond between the company and the village? Is it possible Hafiz is part of a larger pro-gods religious organization that might view this development with interest?
     
  2. ShoughtLoud

    ShoughtLoud Level 14 (Defender) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    I'm sure it wouldn't hurt their relationship for Haffiz to know, but at the same time it's not the kind of thing Richter or anyone should be telling people about. If broached more from the intel gathering side rather than the intel sharing side like: "I see your belief in your diety is quite strong even after so many years, have you been able to discover anything more about yadda yadda yadda?" then maybe it would be ok. Given Richter's luck stat and being the MC it wouldn't surprise me if Haffiz was in fact part of some bring the gods back cult, who are trying to amass enough wealth to gather info on the banishment and such. If Haffiz is, his trader talents and rank bonuses (smell a deal) might even trigger if he talks to Richter again. I imagine the trade skill could be quite useful as an information broker as well as for goods and services.
     
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  3. Captain BlackJack

    Captain BlackJack Level 14 (Defender) Exiles Citizen

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    The Mist Village might not be Yves enemy but Yves is the enemy of the Mist Village.
    There is a old Latin proverb that says in wine there is truth. When Ricther became drunk on his blood magic he was ready to declare war on Yves. Ricther has no patients for Slavery or rape. The Count himself a rapist, the King allowing slavery, and institutionalizing racism has set the story line.

    There is no way in my mind that AK will make Ricther friends with Slavers and Rapist.

    Ricther has been set in complete opposition to Yves.

    There is no way that Ricther will take on slaves as workers. I also don’t know if any slave worker deals Ricther has with the Hearth Mother.

    I do recall a deal cut for weapons being exchanged for skilled labor in return.

    You are completely right Shout.

    Ricther has a whole world he can trade with. He doesn’t have to trade with law or anywhere in Yves. If Ricther does want to continue to sell in Yves he should only sell such potions to the opposition to the Count and King.

    I wouldn’t take a chance at helping a enemy of mine nor any morally corrupt leader. Ricther could find himself at war with Yves weather he wants it or not. Why wouldn’t you rather sell and trade with possible allies over possible enemies.
     
  4. Captain BlackJack

    Captain BlackJack Level 14 (Defender) Exiles Citizen

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    If Basil could get permissions from local authorities as he traveled they could have private high end auctions. Although basil might need to develop some auctioneer skills. Besides getting more for his potions He could also generate more revenue by selling others items.
     
  5. Dragon

    Dragon Level 16 (Paladin) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    1)
    Richter didn't become drunk on alcohol and lost his inhibitions. He became drunk on blood power and decided to strike at the biggest target around, the one place he knew he'd be able to find enough blood to last him years. Faced with even the slightest opposition he immediately decided to kill. Nothing in there was the truth of anything other than bloodlust.

    2)
    I'm not arguing Richter and Yves don't have opposite views nor that they won't eventually come to blows. But at the moment most nonhumans are long gone from the kingdom, having either been expulsed or fled slavery. Some remain in bondage. Yves isn't currently attacking anyone nor did the human residents seem particularly downtrodden.

    There are factions that are worse than Yves by orders of magnitude. The gnolls and the goblins have shown themselves willing to do far worse. No doubt the bugbears will prove themselves to be more of the same. I wouldn't be surprised if the drow turned out to be more chaotic evil shits. Vampires and trolls seem to be lawfully evil, but they likely have Blood-bags and slaves as well.

    3)
    I said slaves OR workers. So you'd rather leave slaves in chains than buy them so that they can earn or be granted their freedom?
    Paying for freedom isn't palatable to anyone, but sometimes you need to pay for things because you simply cannot afford to take them by force. If somethings gotta give, let it be pride before lives.

    4)
    As for being friends with "slavers and rapists", the western world has trade deals with China, a nation that effectively employ slave labor in the Xinjiang province and elsewhere. Same in the middle east, plenty of unofficial slaves around. We still trade with them, but few western nations consider them friends or allies.

    Richter needs money, he needs labor, he needs more raw materials for the core buildings to grow, he wants more knowledge of every sort and he really wants to free more nonhumans. Options for all that comes with trading the Yvesians weapons and potions. The downside is that a nation that already has an army that outnumbers his population a hundred times over gets a smidge stronger

    5) A whole world he knows very little about. We know that Rione is fairly enlightened (lot of good that does, can't sail to Rione, though a caravan might be able to get through or below the mountains?) and presumably the wood elf kingdom is as well, but apart from those our knowledge of other kingdoms is nonexistent. The rulers of the twins could be worse than the king of Yves.

    I too would prefer to trade with allies and friendly powers. That's why i've advocated reaching out to local tribes and kingdoms to establish trade and alliances, such as the wood elves, the southern sprite tribes, the beastmen tribes, the dwarven surface clans, the dwarven kingdom of stone (assuming it still exists), the kobolds and the list goes on. All of them are a week or two away by caravan (less by ship if a traversable route can be found). Why is it a good idea to travel halfway across the southeastern peninsula to find trade partners without checking whether Richter's neighbors are open to trade first? Granted Richter should do both, but start with the people within easy reach. Richter has already wasted months.
     
  6. Captain BlackJack

    Captain BlackJack Level 14 (Defender) Exiles Citizen

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    Tisk tisk tisk .................

    Drag, do you ever read my post?

    Reply (1)
    Your number one is based on a complete bogus premise.

    PLEASE, re read the Third Sentence I wrote.

    Reply (2)

    Do we really know how many non humans are in Yves? How would we know that most of the non- humans are long gone?

    Your not arguing that “they won’t eventually come to blows.”

    So why build their abilities up?

    Reply (3)

    Drag, I thought this post was about how desperately bad Ricther needs gold or coinage?

    If Ricther is in such a bad financial shape how can he afford to buy people out from under enslavement?

    Please remember this isn’t just about slavery. It’s not all about injustice or rape. Its about sacrifice as well.

    Ricther has time constraints that he has to keep. He doesn’t have time to wait trying to make friends. Some of the captive none humans are being sacrificed. This story is about the good apples removing the bad apples.

    Reply (4)

    This has nothing to do with the western world and China.

    Yves is a nation known for war. How many nations and races has it wards with?

    Should Ricther be looking for allies or should he help empower a nation that has historically wares with his possible allies?

    How would any possible allies feel if they New he was helping build up Yves Royalty and their armies?

    Yves is stronger then the Mist Village no doubt. So why should Ricther continue making them stronger? Ricther could help his future allies become more powerful.

    Ricther doesn’t need Yves money. He can earn gold from selling his goods and resources around the rest of the world developing allies along the way.

    Reply (5)

    Ricther has the river system, the seas, oceans, the node road, and portals to transport his goods around the land.

    It might take some time to develop everything he needs but he has plenty of it. Until he has a surplus Ricther won’t reall be ready to trade anyway.

    I said it before Ricther doesn’t have a cash problem. He has a resource and labor issue.
     
  7. PokemonThug

    PokemonThug Level 13 (Assassin) Roleplaying Exiles Citizen

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    I think we have an easy way to make some money
    Shake it Cpnt;DD
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2020
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  8. Captain BlackJack

    Captain BlackJack Level 14 (Defender) Exiles Citizen

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    Poke that would need to be put On the river by the dockyard. Every sailor in the Land would be dreaming of it. All the ships Captains would be looking for cargo destined to the MV River Market.

    That is a good idea.
     
  9. Dragon

    Dragon Level 16 (Paladin) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    1) I did. I still don't see being under the control of blood power as remotely similar to losing inhibitions from drunkenness.

    2) There was never that many nonhumans in the kingdom in the first place, due to historical enmities. Yves is a human kingdom built by waging war on its neighbors. Yves grew to its current power by crushing its neighbors, humans and otherwise. One of the reasons the refugees diden't flee is that most other factions are hostile towards the kingdom and its citizens. I suspect that hostility is extended to most humans.

    As of book 1
    The nonhumans in Law had been leaving for a while. It took the direct intervention of the king to prevent the exodus from continuing. I think most nonhumans in the rest of the country would have tried to leave at that point if they weren't leaving already, because they were clearly on borrowed time before it became impossible to get out or more rights were taken away. They were already second class citizens being robbed of most of their income, how long before it became legal to beat or kill them for being "uppity"?

    Those who weren't skilled craftsmen were legally robbed if caught leaving (fleeing) and thrown out of the kingdom with nothing other than the clothes on their backs. At least that's how I read the next quote. That would be most of the nonhuman population.

    There is also this quote, which shows that while slavery may technically be illigal, in practice it has reared its ugly head in Yves.

    2.2)
    Because it doesn't matter whether Yves gets 0.1% stronger from the trade, what matters is growing the village into a rival power that can actually make an impact which is years off. Richter's focus should be on gathering enough power and influence - likely borrowed from HM - to hold back the bugbears, the ashstalkers, the other goblin tribes, the hobgoblins, the orcs, the drow and whatever other evil forces are involved in the invasion. Thankfully he doesn't have to do that on his own as the invaders are spread out across the forest.

    While that is happening, his best bet for freeing nonhumans in Yves is to establish himself as a trader in luxury goods. Once he becomes known as a man of significant means, he should get into the slavetrade in order to buy as many Yvesian slaves for the village as he can under cover of having buyers elsewhere (any excuse will do). People that truly do not want to join the village will have to be let go, but the majority would be ecstatic over the chance to serve for a year in return for enough wealth to free relatives that are still in bondage, and from there, most will go on to swear fealty. An option I suspect other villagers might go for as well is giving up part of their salary to pay for more slaves to be freed, especially relatives.

    3)
    My original post spoke of the neighboring tribes offering up slaves or workers as payment in addition to raw materials for weapons and potions. You wouldn't need money. And yes, it's unpalatable to strengthen your foes or vile peoples with weapons and potions, but freeing those unfairly enslaved through no fault of their own weighs higher in my book. Especially as those weapons and potions will likely be used against the bugbears.

    4) The comparison with the west and China is perfectly valid. It simply serves as an example of a nation we trade with despite having significant issues with their internal policies. China has always had them, the West has always critisized them and trade has continued unhindered.

    Once Richter is done with the alliance he currently faces, the azergoth swamp (in every conceivable way worse than Yves) and alliance partners outside of that region has been cleared out (as in at the very least a nonaggression treaty), he can start figuring out a longterm anti-yvesian strategy. At that point ceasing trade with the kingdom would make sense. At that point the village will likely produce enough goods that it will have a real impact.

    5) A labor and resource issue IS a cash issue. He lacks the funds to attract/ buy the workers he needs and he cannot afford to buy the raw materials needed to keep the forge running either.

    Waiting for his economy to overcome the bottlenecks through natural growth could take years. Time he doesn't have.
     
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  10. ShoughtLoud

    ShoughtLoud Level 14 (Defender) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    I'd say he also lacks proper campaign/ effective communications with anyone besides the citizens of HT and Yves, to advertise his village/ the job openings he does have. He's getting by on random exodus, and prisoners of war with no where else to go, but that will only last so long. PoWs will still trickle in through the war with the basilisk alliance, but his exodus income is literally dry after mama arrives, maybe a couple more after he finally decodes the ledger from the Night Blades, but I don't think more than 50 or so from that.
     
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  11. Dragon

    Dragon Level 16 (Paladin) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Agreed.

    The kindir (edit: and the influx of sprites looking for their pixies) should be a wakeup call for Richter. He doesn't need to travel to faroff lands to find new subjects, the forest of Nadria is already home to countless tribes. While the kindir may not contribute that much to production initially, they have at least one alchemist that can join the others in the cauldron, at no cost to Richter other than a fair salary. While kindir aren't particularly serious in general, anyone who survives producing poisons/ medicine for years has to have a bit of good sense.

    Personally, my next step upon returning - assuming the bugbears have been driven off - would be to seek out every remaining tribe in the mist lands to broker deals. Secondly, I would ask the kindir for locations of other minor tribes beyond the mist for at least 10 miles in all directions, so that my representatives can seek them out in preparation for future expansion of the mist. I would also be prepared tp clear out undesirables such as gnolls and goblins if they prove themselves to be similar to their kin elsewhere. Everyone gets a chance, but some not much of one.
     
  12. ShoughtLoud

    ShoughtLoud Level 14 (Defender) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Gonna be difficult to get them to sit down and talk, but I too think they should have a fully realized chance to join up instead of an "oh no they shot before I could tell them about joining up *proceeds to wipe out small village*"
     
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  13. Dragon

    Dragon Level 16 (Paladin) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Could always show up with a small army. Its not the best starting point, but if the goblins/gnolls/ insert evil race, knows they don't stand a snowflakes chance in hell of surviving its probable their leaders will accept parley. At which point they get the whole speech and Richter attempts to make nice before telling them how things work, and what their options are.
     
  14. Captain BlackJack

    Captain BlackJack Level 14 (Defender) Exiles Citizen

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    I don’t think the Kinder that had been captured were from his vassalage. As forces bear down on the river peninsula small villages all over will be looking for shelter and friends. I don’t think it will be to hard for many of them to find a seat. The Elves being a larger and likely more organized group might be more resistant same for the dwarves kingdoms.

    The loose dwarvin tribes will come together under Ricther fairly easy I suspect. When he units them under a Axe bearer.
     
  15. Waterhobit

    Waterhobit Level 10 (Filcher) Citizen

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    All of this discussion about how Richter is going to profit off the Mine, Crystal Garden, Dungeon, FoH, and Cauldron, and I can't believe the real solution wasn't mentioned, although Captain BlackJack touched on it. The production facilities don't have to focus right now on creating revenue because Richter keeps bringing in large quantities of gold, gems, precious metals, and high value trading items like the tefanim jewelry and kobold coins. The real issue is all of the silver being being sent to payroll. Thousands of silver per fortnight is being paid to his villagers and so far they have nothing to spend it on. If Richter can figure out how to bring that money back into the MV coffers, his issues will be solved.


    Building a market is going to be a big part of the solution:

    1. Richter already has several professionals who make non-combat related items (Chandler, Soaper, Weaver, Cordwainer, Carpenter, Locksmith). These need to be making profits for Richter.

    2. Private housing needs to be established. The builders need to start constructing individual homes, condos, apartments, ext. These can be sold or rented to villagers at a reasonable cost.

    3. Once families begin taking up private residence, Richter can begin transitioning away from free meals, and letting the villagers purchase food in the market to cook at home, and Richter can begin charging for meals served by Takko in the public feast area.

    4. Finally, there is the sale of luxury items, enchanted gear, and dungeon loot.

    The idea here is not to squeeze every last copper back out of his people, but if he can effectively cut his payroll expenses in half by bring some of that money back in, it will make a tremendous difference.
     
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  16. Dragon

    Dragon Level 16 (Paladin) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Richter has promised free housing and basic upkeep for a year. After that

    1)True, that would help some. But at lot of that stuff won't be useful before people have their own space rather than a chest in a corner. Other things such as soap Richter might want to hold off on setting a price on until people get used to the idea of daily baths for hygienic reasons. Otherwise some will cut it as an unnecessary expense.

    2) Richter needs another half dozen longhouses just to get the people he currently has housed in tolerable conditions, with another dozen for them to get good conditions. After that, he could simply build more longhouses and once he reaches the point where each longhouse houses 3 - 4 families, build crosswalls with a sound dampener enchantment on. That would turn each longhouse into 3-4 small rowhouses that can be rented out.

    But before he should even think of building enough longhouses that they can be turned into rowhouses, Richter should really finish the city wall (its way too low and large parts are just piled up dirt) and start his hillside removal project from book 7. He also needs to consider constructing an easier way to get into the mountains behind the village, as others have pointed out they are a security risk. Might need to build a road along the cliffside.


    3) Communal cooking is a resource and time-efficient way to prepare meals for hundreds of families. Instead of each household having no choice but to cook each day, that work is done by cooks led by a professional. I really don't think trying to transition away from that model will be popular with the villagers after getting them used to the convenience of eating delicious food made by a professional every day. Especially not the people (wives) that have to work a day job and then return home to cook ;)

    Its also a great way for the community to get together and for people to mix.

    A kitchen in each home is a fine idea for those days when families do not wish for a communal meal.

    4) The primary buyers of these things would be the military - bad idea to put the best hardware behind a paywall for the individual soldiers to pay when your army is trying to get ready for war - and Dungeon divers aka adventurers.

    Adventurers are already getting fleeced by high taxes and Guild fees, but I agree Richter should set up a market of his own for buying and selling goods/ services to them so they can reinvest their remaining funds into bettering themselves. With room for independent merchants/ other businesses to move in later on.

    The only service that should remain free is healing, which the adventurers have more than paid for with a 50% tax and another 25% of their total income going to the guild coffers (effectively they have a quarter of their income for themselves). It will also pay for itself many times over by keeping adventurers active in the Dungeon rather than having to stay in bed to heal for months or worse getting crippling injuries that are outside their price-range to get fixed. Plus, it will serve as a security net that will lure many more into the Dungeon.
     
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  17. Waterhobit

    Waterhobit Level 10 (Filcher) Citizen

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    Richter has promised free housing, yes, and I think he should extend this to all villagers throughout the first year of the village regardless of when they joined. However, just because public accommodation in the longhouses is free doesn't mean that some of his villagers wouldn't voluntarily pay a little extra for private accommodations.

    This is part the reason why offering private housing is so important.

    I will concede that yes, the village defenses are a greater priority.

    I can't remember if free meals were promised or not, but if it is an option, Richter should start charging for non-event-related communal meals, and establishing a food market. As far as people returning home to cook for themselves this is a very normal thing historically and currently on earth, and in the culture of the Land.

    Everybody in the MV is about to be an adventurer. Is Richter expected to outfit every one of them with top-tier gear for free? Why is it not fair to require villagers to purchase at least a portion of their own gear. It's not like they don't have money to invest. Granted, Richter should provide some deep discounts on enchanted gear for the MV'ers, and should provide some level of gear for villagers to use free of charge.

    For instance, they could loan out enchanted high steel gear and a couple health rings and some potions to any villager entering the dungeon, but that same villager could purchase a moonstone weapon and additional rings and potions at a discount from a vendor.

    Plus Richter can sell luxury items like bags of holding and non-magical jewelry.
     
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  18. Captain BlackJack

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    Ricther will need to convert his village to a semiopen market system at point. Ricther does need to prepare everyone for when their contracts run out.

    I started to touch some of this in my mist village strategy phase one. Ricther will treat everyone fairly that doesn’t mean they all should be treated the same. That’s why I had suggested the different classes of citizens, denizens, and vassals. I wouldnt give any denizen full access to all of the MV. Nor should they have full access to the MV products. Nor should a denizen have the right to own land in the MV. Vassals should only be able to hold land grants not own it. Citizens of the MV should be allowed to own land. Citizens vassals should be allowed to own land and hold land grants as well. All of the land grant holders and land owners would be taxed.

    Markets are very important. Ricther should have multiple markets. His first market should be a river market to help facilitate regional river trade. It would also offer some lesser goods for sell to sailors and for people passing by. A open market for the MV selling normal and lessor goods will be needed intime as villagers will need to meet their own needs. At this time it could offer “extra” goods that villagers might desire but not need as all basic needs are being met by Ricther. Perfume, additional alcohol, clothing, shoes, and jewelry could be desired by anyone with the currency. I would like to see Ricther introduce some specific things to the land like ice cream. My understanding is that the villagers earn so much a fortnight but they will only be paid at the end of the years contract. That was to give him time to build the village and make the silvers they earn.

    Ricther should eventually open a market in one of his underground courtyards. The underground courtyard market would only grant access to citizens and citizen vassals. The underground market would sell the better to higher end items keeping the more superior goods hidden from the rest of the world.

    I think Ricther should build another market inside his dungeon. Think of the advantages Ricther might have gain being perhaps the only privately owned market inside the dungeon. Adventurers would be drawn to his dungeon and market trying to avoid taxation by governments and guilds. Ricther could offer a few of his higher items for sell in the dungeon. He wouldn’t want it to give away his core buildings by having great numbers of high level items for sale at any greater public markets.

    At this point Ricther would have a greater benefit from a river side market bringing in gold and silver. Ricther needs foreign currency to help fill his coffers.
     
  19. Captain BlackJack

    Captain BlackJack Level 14 (Defender) Exiles Citizen

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    To help with Ricthers money problems he should strike his own coinage. In time he should have four coins struck in every precious metal. All those coin designs should be used to promote the MV dungeon. Then the should be thrown in the well of offering. Ricther could have real coins made but he can’t give them that real feeling. Fortunately the dungeon makes coins and also gives them that real feeling. Ricthers Dungeon would recognize his coins as real. When it reproduces those coins it would possibly give them that magical feeling. If not people will still get them from the dungeon. That would be a great way to advertise throughout the Land.
     
  20. Captain BlackJack

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    I believe Ricther is only on the hook for one year of basic housing, food, and bare necessities. I only expect Ricther to equip his guards, and army with the best gear possible. Everyone else in his militia should be equipped with weapons, shields, and some armor. Anything beyond that could be merchandised. The more immediate issue is the lack of excess goods. As of now all his previous productions have gone to supply his people their basic needs. I expect that to change in the next few books. Story timelines, raw materials, and his population growth will make the difference in any excess items that can be sold.
     




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