Multiprofessed - the dwarven way?

Discussion in 'Debates & Discussions' started by Dragon, Aug 18, 2020.

  1. Dragon

    Dragon Level 19 (Enchanter) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    I had an argument over on Aleron's facebook page about multiple professions. We discussed whether someone like Randy might forego getting a second profession to avoid splitting his focus and I raised the counterpoint that with multiple professions you would have multiple times the profession quests. Which would be especially beneficial for longlived races as more lifespan means more time to grind, largely negating the need for a way to gain talent points Richter's way.

    While I was writing that it struck me - what about dwarven smiths, is it normal for them to have multiple smithing related professions in addition to being smiths? They have a penchant for both smithing and enchanting. In fact they tie the two skills together and will not acknowledge someone as a master smith if they have not learned at least 10 enchantments, which given that each takes years of work to earn more than likely means that person is also a fairly good enchanter at the end. Most dwarven smiths with the affinity for it are likely good Miners as well.

    On a sidenode, what about sub-skills like dense forging, could you profess in it? Or could you unlock new branches in the smith tree that isn't available to a vanila smith like Krom? Would a smithing related profession unlock new skillbranches?
     
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  2. ShoughtLoud

    ShoughtLoud Level 18 (Magician) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    +1 for daring to argue with the echo chamber.
    You may very well have the trade off summed up in the first paragraph there. You can get a focus, gaining what quests go along with it, or gain another profession with massively more quests, but be a less powerful first profession vs someone who focused up. Seems like a fair trade to me honestly.

    Dwarven Smiths: Likely the same hing would apply if true. Some are generalists while others are the absolute authority in their respective focus.
    Disagree with them being good enchanters by the time they get smithing to 100. Skill progress should stagnate given they only know so few, likely very not powerful enchantments. Richter has literally dozens of enchantments of varying strength and level, and he was getting down to the point of progressing maybe 4% over the course of days to weeks (book seven backlash incident) with maxed out affinity and 30% boost to skill speed. This picked up a bit with dual enchanting since it was harder for him, but the same applies to a dwarf, only as far as fast learner and limitless, they no have dat. Now I'm sure some dwarfs might be up to the task, they may even be better at enchanting than smithing, but I'd guess that's not often the case with the species who puts so much belief into being great smiths.

    My guess is that, sub-skills in profession skills are their own reward. They are like purchased talents themselves almost, but just require practice instead of talent points, like Richter's weapon arts. Although I admit I could also see them unlock either bonus talents, (once the sub-skill reaches 45 or maybe you just have to have the sub-skill and find a relevant talent out in like tier 1 rank 6 or so) bonus talents in certain specialization trees, or just straight up a different specialization / focus.

    I will not agree that sub-skills would let you get a separate profession though. Dense forging? You're a Smith. Stun Shot? You're an Archer (Ranger?) whatever, useless without the bow. Exotic Beasts? Still animal husbandry you just like weirder sh**. You can't get a a sub-skill to 45 without the main skill, all the talents of each over-skill profession would still apply to the sub-skills, and still describe what anyone would be doing with the sub-skills. No need to over complicate it by adding new professions for things that are arguably the same.
     
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  3. Dragon

    Dragon Level 19 (Enchanter) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    There is an old saw about the martial artist that has trained once with a million moves and the one who has trained one move a million times. The one who has truly mastered one move is the winner in nearly every battle, thereas his opponent is an amateur. Knowing more and stronger moves does not make you the better martial artist. The same is true for an enchanter and any profession really. Its not about what you know, its about what you have mastered to the point where you can bring forth its true potential.

    Knowing 10 enchantments, means you have ten tools in your toolbox. That gives you 45 dual enchantment combinations, 120 triple enchantments combinations, 210 quadruple enchantment combinations, 252 with five enchantments and then the same up to 10. Feel free to prove me wrong on the numbers (i'm fairly sure I used the wrong formula), but basically there are several hundred possible combinations an enchanter can use with 10 basic enchantments, some of which will likely have synergistic effects (at least that's how I would set it up). Which ignores the option of stacking the same enchantment(s) multiple times. That's not limited in my eyes, its enough for a lifetime.

    If we further assume no dwarf smith would trade years of service for a random enchantment, but that they seek out other smiths who own particular enchantments they know (or at least strongly suspect) will work well together with the others they have - say earth enchantments combined with a few nonelemental enchantments such as a boost to base damage and/ or speed - you get to the point where you can crank out weapons with enchantments that are just as good if not better than those put on weapons from the forge of heavens. The average dwarven enchanter still wouldn't have the versatility of someone like Richter, but he would be more than able to hold his own within his field of enchanting specialization. Richter on the other hand, has no field of enchanting in which he excels.

    He does have a lot of enchantments, but he combines them pretty much randomly. I mean a sword with beastslaying? How about, I don't know, a boarspear with a goblin slaying enchantment next? What's the plan here? XD
     
  4. Andrew Lynas

    Andrew Lynas Level 17 (Theurgist) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Sub Skills are more likely to come into Effect when it comes time to Choose a Specialization then a Profession,although if it's a really rare and unusual one then I suppose it might allow for an Unusual Smithing Related Profession?

    I do find the idea that having Multiple Professions might Hinder many people in gaining a Focus to be an intriguing idea, (Although I doubt that that would be true for Richter due to his Limitless Ability), but can't be sure that it might hinder Focuses till we learn more about Focuses. I really want to learn more about them.

    I am wondering if a person gets to a High Enough Tier then they might be able to get a chance to get a weaker Sub/Secondary Profession or Specialization?
     
  5. ShoughtLoud

    ShoughtLoud Level 18 (Magician) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    10 singles
    No that's the right math, but enchanting isn't really sword play is it?

    A man with ten enchantments is a man who has mastered... Those ten things. If Krom is anything to judge by, most of them would be static enchantments. No ranking those up, even in a magic forge. And the more you practice the same enchantments, they do get easier... Which means you don't level up worth a shite, because that comes from it being a challenge. And it's not like they get ten to start with, they need ten by the time they hit 100 which doesn't always happen. I'd be surprised if, given the chance to write again, anyone of the dwarven master smiths with the minimum under their belt was above 35 in enchanting. They do grow quite old and progress is progress even if it is miniscule.
     
  6. Dragon

    Dragon Level 19 (Enchanter) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Ten basic singles, or ten letters. Its not insignificant, its more than you need to boost your weapons as long as you plan out your path. Its also the bare minimum required to be considered a master smith. No one has said dwarven smiths do not trade/ work for new enchantments after getting their tenth, i'd think most of them do. Enchanting is clearly a very big deal for them, likely because they desire to craft the very best of weapons. I imagine some learn crafting as well, just to boost the number of enchantment slots. Krom will likely wish to learn the art of runes, because again, it will boost his potential as a smith.

    Now we saw in book seven that skills originate with people, at least this is true for subskills. I think, but cannot prove, the same would be true for main skills. This likely means talents also originate with people, hence the whole fighting styles that approximate the power of talents in book 8. Long story short, I think everything you can do with a talent can be learned, even if some things would be very, very hard to learn without spending talent points. Something I think would be manageable is learning to do dual enchantments, as Richter has learned dual casting, and even combining two or more enchantment into one, the same way HM did on that block of stone she turned into a giant pile of soul stones, could be possible. Now neither used enchantments, but I think there should be ways to achieve the same end result.

    Even if there isn't a way to learn to do dual enchantments without the talent, you simply seek other ways to grow. Krom is pretty high level as an enchanter, but he knows fewer than ten enchantments and is middleaged for a dwarf at worst. He also became a professed smith based on working with the lowest tier of schematics. Would he have achieved it in half the time using schematics fit for his level? Yes he would, but even if it takes longer, you still reach the goal eventually. Dwarves have centuries of life, even if krom has to spend 2, 3 or 5 years to get as much skill exp as a human with access to higher level schematics gets in one, he can afford the investment of time and effort. Doesn't mean he wasn't salivating at the idea of gaining access to more advanced schematics, he clearly was.

    As for them being static, i'm unsure what you mean- why would every enchantment available be static? Gloran explained the system to Richter. Every enchanter has active and static enchantments, but active enchantments learned outside of a forge and not created by you are locked to the rank at which you learned them. Static enchantments such as + 1 Damage, + 10% Durability, and + 2 Defense on the other hand do not rank up at all, but they are immensely useful because they alter base charismatics and they stack.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2020
  7. PokemonThug

    PokemonThug Level 17 (Theurgist) Roleplaying Exiles Beta Reader Citizen Aspiring Writer

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    Hmm I believe practice is underestimated.. yes you could to learn the techniques a million times etc..
    But without sparrings and real life fights to the death(at least 500).. you will never surpass basic theory.
    Practising same move over and over will make you orificcient/ maybe you will even polish your style.. but then you must must go out and fight others and improve from real fights..
     
  8. ShoughtLoud

    ShoughtLoud Level 18 (Magician) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Not every enchantment would be static, I said "most, if Krom is anything to judge by" /I'm fairly certain that the enchantments gained through research are mostly static and so more widely available
     
  9. Dragon

    Dragon Level 19 (Enchanter) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Ok my misunderstanding :(

    Static enchantments aren't bad either though.

    I think we both agree that its a whole lot more work leveling without access to more advanced schematics, blueprints, enchantments, spells etc. Basically there is a challenge system in place. This means that while forging a tier 1 knife at skilllevel 1 might lead to gaining 50 skill exp (probably a good chunk of the exp needed), at skill level 40 it might give no more than 10 skill exp (meaning you'd need thousands of such projects to level). At the same time requirements to level have gone up. Its still possible to become a professional, but beyond that progress starts becoming agonizingly slow. Too slow for most humans to ever gain a mastery.

    Gaining higher challenges will allow faster advancement. It will also mean better everything.
     
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  10. Andrew Lynas

    Andrew Lynas Level 17 (Theurgist) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    If it's possible to Learn Talent Like Techniques (like with Richters Mace and Short Blades) then it should be possible with some Hard Work and a Teacher with the right Knowledge for Richter to at least Learn the Basics of Flesh Enchanting or Similar.
     
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