(philosophy) NPCs real or not

Discussion in 'All Things LitRPG' started by MrPotatoMan, Aug 24, 2017.

  1. MrPotatoMan

    MrPotatoMan Level 13 (Assassin) Citizen

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    So assuming we were in a LitRPG setting with NPCs created by a computer do you think they are real or not? what caveats does that come with are there situations in which this opinion would change? I intentionally left this question open as there are many different variations on the theme.
     
  2. Paul Bellow

    Paul Bellow Forum Game Master Staff Member LitRPG Author Shop Owner Citizen Aspiring Writer

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    I'm touching on this in Tower of Gates ...

    NPCs are either AI (computer controlled) or PCs that have been turned into NPCs...So, some NPCs are more "real" than others... [/quote]

    I plan on going into the whole "emergent intelligence" a bit more in the next few books - the female MC's familiar (spider) is run by an AI.
     
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  3. Matthew James

    Matthew James Blind Beholder Beta Reader Citizen

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    I say not, but that doesn't change the fact that I'll have characters not be able to help their sympathizing with a NPC or to feel about them like they are a family pet. Then set them against people playing to get their own that have no problem killing someones Chia Pet / Tamagacchi that isn't even real.
     
  4. Felicity Weiss

    Felicity Weiss Musey Muse Muse Shop Owner Citizen

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    Here is a nice quote from Life Reset, the litrpg I am currently reading: "You may perceive this place only as virtual reality, but for us, reality is virtual."
     
  5. VRRanger

    VRRanger Level 12 (Rogue) Roleplaying Beta Reader Citizen Aspiring Writer

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    I think in play to live the subject was brought up with the thought that if you can take a human conscious and place it in the game, is it so hard to imagine that the npc's can develop their own. And I think they would need to be developed.....
     
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  6. Seagrim

    Seagrim Level 18 (Magician) LitRPG Author Citizen

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    If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and has a waterproof butt like a duck, it's a duck.

    Whether something is created by parents, genetic jiggering or code becoming sophisticated, it's still a person. Origin doesn't dictate destination.
     
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  7. Paul Bellow

    Paul Bellow Forum Game Master Staff Member LitRPG Author Shop Owner Citizen Aspiring Writer

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    How do we know we're not SIMS ourselves?! ;p
     
  8. CheshirePhoenix

    CheshirePhoenix Crazy Hermit on the Hill LitRPG Author Beta Reader Citizen Editor Aspiring Writer

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    It's up to the author as to how real the NPCs are or not. That's one of the core questions of the genre as a whole, is whether or not virtual reality is virtual, or reality.

    You Would probably be interested in the series "the Shattered Lands" - it deals with this question by having two friends play the game, but one of them sees it as just a game with the NPCs being nothing more than ones and zeros, and the other one sees the NPCs as real people. Conflict occurs and excrement happens. Really good books to boot.
     
  9. Kidlike101

    Kidlike101 Level 18 (Magician) Citizen

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    depends on the layout of the game/story.

    If the NPC just rattle things off as if reading from a script then not real and just a means to an end

    If the AI is so advance that they react to you and current events then you treat them as real, inconvenient as that might be.
     
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  10. MrPotatoMan

    MrPotatoMan Level 13 (Assassin) Citizen

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    When I posed the question I was assuming there real enough to feel at least mostly human although not a perfect sim.
    I think part of my opinion on NPCs is that they are human in a similar way to an animal, animals can feel and think but there ultimately dictated by instinct and much more simple then a human while this may make harming them less terrible I would still consider killing them for no reason a terrible thing. I cant help but think however this sounds really cruel I personally just think there not as close to as valuable as your average person because there just a snapshot of a person and not a person altogether however if given enough time they can become essentially human like a child who wont grow unless given attention by a human there not fully human until the grow up is I think an accurate summary of my point.
    PS. I would like to add that I do consider children human but I would say that mentally there is a difference and since AIs are only mental thats the only aspect im considering.
     
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  11. Viergacht

    Viergacht Thunderdragon LitRPG Author Roleplaying Beta Reader Citizen Aspiring Writer

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    By real do you mean conscious? Self-aware? It's a deep and layered question. But from the point of view of the human player, it probably doesn't matter if they're truly aware, as long as they're complex enough to engage our emotions. Human brains are really good at attributing theory of mind to things that don't have minds, which is why we might, for example, yell at an inanimate object that isn't working. Look how attached to fictional characters people get in games & tv shows even now. In a virtual world that's perfectly realistic, even knowing intellectually that NPCs are just data probably wouldn't keep you from reacting to them as if they were aware (unless you were a sociopath, maybe).
     
  12. Seagrim

    Seagrim Level 18 (Magician) LitRPG Author Citizen

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    Ouch, well, this is getting into a level of philosophical discourse I usually don't engage in until the second scotch.

    Not even touching on the concept of whether or not an AI would actually be sentient, and just going with the idea that, if the observer isn't able to tell the difference if it is an AI or a person, then the best course of action, for the psychological well being of the observer, is to treat them as if they're real. While I don't think that video games make people violent, there is still a certain effect on the person. In contemporary gaming, this is really negligible, since there is a good solid wall between the game reality and the player reality, and it could even be argued that this effect is positive as a stress release mechanism.

    However, in an immersive future game, the line between game reality and out of game reality will become more blurred. This will also hold true for NPCs with more and more sophisticated AI. Whether they are sentient or not, for all intents and purposes, they are going to appear as a real person in a very real game world to the player. When someone is sitting on a couch and using an Xbox controller, it keeps a very real distance, however, when the player is immersed with senses in the world environment, and NPCs instead of being a picture on a TV turn into apparently living and breathing people in front of the player, violence inflicted on them is going to have a far stronger impact on the player.

    Today, it's just a click of the mouse or hit the X button and the avatar on screen punches an NPC. What kind of an effect is it going to be when the player feels pulling his arm back, and the NPC in front of them cringes and yells, "Please don't hurt me!".
     
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  13. Paul Bellow

    Paul Bellow Forum Game Master Staff Member LitRPG Author Shop Owner Citizen Aspiring Writer

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    I've been having fun with some of my AI constructs being child-like until they learn... which happens quickly!
     
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  14. Adam Elliott

    Adam Elliott Level 8 (Thug) LitRPG Author Citizen

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    This is actually going to be a significant plotline in my upcoming release, and a semi-important plot point throughout.

    The Elan (NPCs) are a race of people that claim to have existed for thousands of years inside the tower. They have their own history, legends, systems of government and so on. They have their own interests, pick up music and culture from the outside world and so forth. But they also have what, on the outside, look like scripted events. Do they go to work every day because they want to? Or because the game only works if shops are open. There are command words that players can use to skip haggling and purchase from a menu, or to get them to leave a room if they want privacy and so forth

    It gets even more complicated in book two, where the main character gets put in charge of a number of them. Are they following him because they are loyal? Or is loyalty nothing more than a numeric value hidden behind whatever warped reality to create them in the first place.

    Concepts like that are a ton of fun to play around with, and one of the better part of the genre as a whole, at least I feel that way.
     
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  15. James G Patton

    James G Patton Horrific Pun Master LitRPG Author Citizen

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    Look at the Thomas Theorem, which and I'm quoting, says 'If Men define situations as real, they are real in their consequences.' In my opinion, the realism of the NPC is not as important as the person interacting with them, if the NPC can engage them and form that relationship, even a fraction enough to make it feel real, then I think we as human's will do the rest. If your player never engages with the NPC, i.e. they are made to stand out from players, then I think they will always feel like an object.

    Take dog lover's that view their dogs like their own children. They are willing to murder for them because to them they lost that distinction between kid and animal, just like a player might do overtime with an NPC. Just my opinion.
     
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  16. CheshirePhoenix

    CheshirePhoenix Crazy Hermit on the Hill LitRPG Author Beta Reader Citizen Editor Aspiring Writer

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    I'd murder people for my dog not because I think of her as anything BUT a dog, but rather because I don't want her getting a taste for human flesh. Bad enough she's got a taste for Canada geese, but at least I can *eat* those when she kills them (not very good eats though, they taste like spite and malice).
     
  17. Tom Gallier

    Tom Gallier Level 15 (Guardian) LitRPG Author Citizen

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    In my books NPCs are self aware, or as self aware as an AI-controlled being can be. My characters even realize (eventually) that killing them is worse that killing a player that respawns.
     
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  18. James G Patton

    James G Patton Horrific Pun Master LitRPG Author Citizen

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    Nothing like a little spite and malice to ruin a good steak. Just as bad as cooking it well done.
     
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  19. CheshirePhoenix

    CheshirePhoenix Crazy Hermit on the Hill LitRPG Author Beta Reader Citizen Editor Aspiring Writer

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    I think that's a pretty common point for most authors.
     
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