Professionals their shops and all their toils

Discussion in 'Debates & Discussions' started by Captain BlackJack, Aug 14, 2020.

  1. Captain BlackJack

    Captain BlackJack Level 14 (Defender) Exiles Citizen

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    When Ricther builds his new professional Lumberjack a sawmill I would like to see the hearth mother guide them to planting a tree farm. Knowing there are several types of magical trees that could be planted it would create another boon for the Mist Village.
     
  2. Dragon

    Dragon Level 16 (Paladin) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    That's an interesting idea. Though it might be better for the village's longterm future to actively take charge of the forests surrounding the village, removing surplus/ dying trees for their own use and generally doing what they can to manage the forest, especially the groves with magical trees. Right now they are presumably just cutting down entire swaths of forest, which isn't a sustainable use of woodland you wish to retain.

    As Richter is allied with HM he needs to be aware that she has a bottom line when it comes to how much damage to nature she will accept, a problem that is reinforced by the presence of the pixies. Both are nature aligned factions with a love for woodland. Both will eventually look at an everexpanding mist realm as a threat if they continue on their present course.

    I've mentioned elsewhere the option of carving out homes in the mountains behind the village for dwarves and other races that prefer dwelling underground. A fullscale dwarven hold (or perhaps just a few nice caverns for now) in the upper reaches would provide security against enemies crossing the mountains to attack from that side in addition to a lot of space that the mist realm can use to settle the future underground dwelling migrants into. Many other races would prefer forest settlements to living in a town, kinda like suburbs.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2020
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  3. Captain BlackJack

    Captain BlackJack Level 14 (Defender) Exiles Citizen

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    Would a professional Kinder builder be capable of growing a hillock dwelling?

    That was what AK had suggested about the Kinder hamlet.

    Perhaps with a bit more effort they could grow them human sized.
     
  4. Captain BlackJack

    Captain BlackJack Level 14 (Defender) Exiles Citizen

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    The Hearth Mothers professional builder should also be able to provide trees grown into homes. That would be another way around a problem if the can make them grow to human sized homes.

    I know Ricther has had a lot of trees cleared out. He saw it as cleaning up the place. Cutting down the largest trees might have hurt the situation. How long might it take to grow a home from a tree?

    Ricther has a wonderful growth bonus and the Hearth Mother has her quickening spell. That was the spell she used to accelerate the growth of the celestial tree. At that I don’t think the celestial tree is big enough that anything more then the pixies could live in at the moment. Then again if he builders have the capacity to stretch out a trees board feet they might be able to make some thin walled smaller trees for the Sprites to live in.
     
  5. Dragon

    Dragon Level 16 (Paladin) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Living in tree homes is one option that I would consider more suited for wood elves, sprites, and similar races. If the dwarves and related would move underground or into the mountains, I don't think it will be as much as a problem for gnomes, humans and highelves to build a city for their part of the population. I don't think that many humans will join them or that they will need/ want buildings if they do. Barring mass migration from Yves, it doesn't seem like there are that many "civilized" humans in the area.

    Have we seen humans from the forest of Nadria?

    Edit:

    There were 97 humans amongst the former goblin slaves out of 359. Hard to tell whether any of them are residents of the forest of Nadria or slaves taken in Rione and Yves. Enelise made the journey from camp to camp all the way from Rione.

    An entire 12 dwarf slaves in a mine camp, i'd have thought there would be more of them. Probably too stubborn and willfull to make good slaves or get taken alive.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2020
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  6. Captain BlackJack

    Captain BlackJack Level 14 (Defender) Exiles Citizen

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    Ricther has a professional sailor and will soon have a ship.

    He also has a ships cradle for his professional Shipwright.

    What Ricther needs now is a port.

    A large open market for merchants and traders. A dock yard for loading and in loading. He needs more of a shipyard not just a ships cradle.

    Randy had mentioned that it would take about week to travel by foot where as the river way would take only a fraction of the time. Ricther had asked about ships of war chasing them from Yves. Randy’s answer was that they had very few. Most of what Yves used were cargo or troop ships. Knowing that Yves would likely attack from troop ships is a huge tip to Ricther. He needs a small fleet of his hybrid cargo and war ships. A port would offer those ships and more a place to repair safely.

    A real river port would be a huge boon for the mist village economy. It would help bring in sorely needed coin that Ricther needs to drive his village. A river port market would give travelers a place to deal with meerseniers and it would also give any koopman a place to operate regionally. With the expansion of the the confusing mist on the river Ricther will need trained river pilots that could charge ships for navigating the mist on the river. River boat transportation and commerce in a river peninsula is the biggest game around unless you have the ability to teleport. Even If you do have teleportation the rest of the world will still be navigating the rivers.
     
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  7. Andrew Lynas

    Andrew Lynas Level 15 (Guardian) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    I'm curious to find out out Skills Richter will Learn once his Ship is ready for use, and he starts Traveling on it and presumably starts to help out in them and Learn how to Man and Sail it?
     
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  8. Dragon

    Dragon Level 16 (Paladin) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    While I honestly like this idea, is the river deep enough for anything other than barges(at its narrowest/ shallowest point)? What about the smaller side channels, are they broad and deep enough to allow passage or do they have to stick to the main channel that leads towards the Yvesian border? If they have to get through Yvesian controlled waterways to get out of the forest that's a major issue in case of war. Its fine for trade, but its going to be difficult to outmaneuver Yves on the water if there is only one path to take.

    In addition to the riverport, a caravansary would be good for those headed inland to trade with tribes in the firetip mountains since this is going to be the last stop before the waterfalls block travel upriver. The mist village could provide guides into and out of its territory, in addition to supplies and a connection to the outside world. There is a thread dedicated to turning the village into a regional center of trade and learning somewhere.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2020
  9. Captain BlackJack

    Captain BlackJack Level 14 (Defender) Exiles Citizen

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    I can see Ricther the having his own river guild. With his confusing mist getting bigger and bigger as time goes own he will need more river boat pilots granted the right to see in the mist. All of Ricthers river pilots and ship captains need to know how to read write. Then they will need to take the scribes oath. That would be the oath that keeps them sworn to secrecy. I wouldn’t be surprised if captains don’t have something similar. I wonder what peopywould be willing to pay for having a vessel guided through the mist?

    5-10 gold?
     
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  10. Dragon

    Dragon Level 16 (Paladin) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    2-4 (edit: Its 4-5 according to book 1) silver is a two-week salary for most unskilled people (edit: in the village its 4, Richter is paying his unskilled workers what laborers earn elsewhere, but he is also paying for housing, food, health care, etc. so their effective salary is much better). So you are asking for a years worth of salary to guide the ship for a couple of hours. Even a wealthy merchant is going to find that a high price for a visit, let alone someone who might be willing to settle permanently and would need to send ships in and out repeatedly.

    I'm not sure its worth it to require a scholars oath in addition to an oath of fealty as it limits the pool of potential pilots severely (not that many people with a scholar profession. Its a talent). Assuming the enemy has access to something that breaches the mist, a good water mage would have a sense of where the river is deep enough for a given ship and where it isn't. If I was sending a ship upriver to hit the village, they would have a water mage regardless of whether a traitorous river captain is guiding the ship or not. Its possible someone without a water mage will try to get there eventually, and will turn a captain to their side who isn't bound by the talent but merely an oath they are willing to foreswear. Some risk is inevitable though.

    Given the circumstances, 5 silvers to hire a pilot for a day to get in and out would be a fair price (edit: for now). 4 silver and five copper for the village, 5 copper for the pilot. Maybe the pilot takes a full silver, that would mean an easy salary of a gold every two week making it extremely attractive.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2020
  11. Captain BlackJack

    Captain BlackJack Level 14 (Defender) Exiles Citizen

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    He should learn knots, tacing, astronomy,and river obstacle detection I, II,III
     
  12. Captain BlackJack

    Captain BlackJack Level 14 (Defender) Exiles Citizen

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    I’m not talking about the Pilots pay. I’m talking about how much the guild gets for providing a pilot to guide ships through the confusing mist safely. I think you might need to consider the cost of ship, it’s cargo, and human life.

    Personally, I value secrecy. The cargo it’s value it’s destination, shipping times, and all shipping arrangements MUST be kept secret.

    Loose lips sink ships
     
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  13. Dragon

    Dragon Level 16 (Paladin) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    I did consider the cost of ship, cargo and human life. I also considered, "well how much is the average smalltime merchantman with half a dozen hands going to expect to make on a visit to a town with less than a thousand residents?". 5 gold would seem like a pretty high fee to me when I haven't even seen the docks yet. 5 silver either way would be the minimum price I would expect for passage.

    I also think ships will have to pay docking fees per day/ weekly which can be scaled to an appropriate value for a ship of a given size, especially if they want a spot where the guards and various facilities are relatively close. By facilities i mean government owned inns and whorehouses catering to the depraved - nonviolent and nonabusive of course - tastes of the sailors. Given the large array of races present in the village they should be able to provide an impressive lineup of prostitutes fit for most tastes. "Mist Lord guaranteed to be in good health, willing and free of sexual diseases. I f**k here, you f**k here, we all f**k here and its perfectly safe... "

    Once a ship is in port they have already paid to get through the mist, so its going to be a somewhat harder decision to turn back. Even if they are being fleeced a little with high docking fees, cheap plentiful drink/ food, gambling dens and expensive whores, the trade in mist wares will be profitable enough to keep them coming back for more.

    River ports, where sailors go to waste their hardearned coins before returning to their ships to earn more money for further pleasures. One of the oldest cycles.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2020
  14. Andrew Lynas

    Andrew Lynas Level 15 (Guardian) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Also Navigation, Sail Riggings/Setting, Ship Maintenance, Ship Steering and maybe Ship Board Combat(?).

    Ropes&Knots and Navigation would be useful for many situations not just for on board a Ship or Boat.

    Might want to Learn a Fishing Skill as well.

    Wonder what Different Skills(Sub-Skills) there might be between Inland(River), Coastal and Deep Water Sailing? Also what Different Skills there might be for Different Sizes and Types of Vessels?
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2020
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  15. Captain BlackJack

    Captain BlackJack Level 14 (Defender) Exiles Citizen

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    So how much do you think a 60-70 ton type of tradeship would cost?

    Only the wealthiest of people and royalty could afford to have ships commissioned in times past.

    Complete fortunes were made and lost on the high seas. Floating among the waves riding on the winds fortunes found their beginnings and ends.

    Caravels were very successful for their time with shallow drafts they were good for trading and exploring.
     
  16. Andrew Lynas

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  17. Dragon

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    Every fishing village in the world had numerous boats. Many of them fit for sailing the open sea, let alone a waterway. Major merchants and nation states built caravels. The mist village is not a major nationstate and has no need for a ship of such size at this time. I'd focus on much smaller ships for rapid building (given the workforce at hand, I know larger ships can also be built fast) so that they can get out there, explore, make contacts, sell some of their weapons and make money. Exploring the nearby riverways does not require a large ship.

    That said, if we were building large ships:

    Richter, given the size of his population, would be well served building cogs with a burthen of 40 tons or so at most. The major advantage of the cog is that it generally requires a smaller crew than carval-built ships such as the caravel (i'm looking at wiki for this info Cog (ship) - Wikipedia). That's 4-5 sailors against 8-10, with maybe another 4-5 dedicated soldiers and a mage to protect them against pirates/ opportunistic tribesmen. In other words, 9-11 people per ship at a minimum.
     
  18. Dragon

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    I would probably also built a few karvis (a type of longship) for warfare and trade, small ones with 6 - 13 benches. Its not much of a warship in terms of tonnage, but they are fast and maneuverable with a shallow draft. Better a handfull of relatively small ships that can flee into waters where the enemy can't follow than a single larger ship.
     
  19. Hastur

    Hastur Level 9 (Burgler) Exiles Citizen

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    Cap,

    I couldn't agree more except.

    1. Look how long just making the first ship is taking. Now the higher morale and loyalty is going to help but it will be like book 20 before there has been enough time in the land for a fleet to be made.

    2. The MV does not have enough troops to even man the ships. Now the caravan is coming but most of us think at most it's 1000 people. How many of those are real soldiers? Even less would be real sailors. Yves is essentially landlocked. Sure there are big rivers but that is not a culture that is going to develop a lot of sailors and those it does are mainly going to be the trading type.

    3. The MV is still in the "hiding" stage sure the Basilisk Alliance knows of them now and maybe that means soon everyone does. But how many times has it been mentioned that countries would go to war over just one core building and Richter currently has 2 and going to make a 3rd. Yves specialty is conquer and the current king does not like non humans. A port might as well be a beacon to Yves saying we're here come get us.

    I love the ideas and want to see the MV succeed and all that but its going to be a while before these can happen.
     
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  20. PokemonThug

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    Yes Plant a Tree farm in the Dungeon, Then water them down with what?
    Blood
     




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