Discussion in 'Disagreements' started by Johan, Apr 30, 2020.
He was more than just an undead sprite.
I'm thinking T2 as a Sprite and then he'd gotten to T3 as a Lich, most likely high up as a T3 but not yet up next to the T4 line.
Litch is immortal. that means he could be living for ~2000 years
He became a Litch like 500 years ago..
In order to become one.. he had to be at least tier 2... his slave worker Nien Was lvl 48.. that is either Tier2.. Or very close to it.
Nien was an advanced form of undead, he probably has a fairly high treshold. Humans on the other hand, live short lives and get fewer stats per level. Even with their stat flexibility and increased range of affinities, they are a bottom tier race. Which leads to them upgrading earlier than other races, likely with the counterpoint that their powerseed is less advanced giving them worse options on average. They do breed fast, like goblins. Except goblins probably breed way faster and given their stations arguably have the best mix of stats.
Thanks to Monsters, we know that Xuetrix is a Tier 2 Ashdark Imp. Using that as a baseline for demon strength, I would put the Greater Wind Demon at either the high end of tier 2 or tier 3. The fact that Sing was able to defeat the Greater Wind Demon, with little to no injuries, shows that he is at least a high level tier 3 or tier 4 in my opinion.
I am going with at least tier three because sing was over level 100 (i think). I am currently using the notion that each tier is in the ball park of 50 lvls (+/- race modifier). This notion is likely wrong but i’m going to stick to till more info appears.
I'm going to guess the lich was an exceptionally powerful t1, lacking the fundamentals to form a core due to the way he gained his power. Tiers are only one path to power and most of Singh's probably came from the sarchophagus. Being able to tier up even if you have the levels is not guaranteed.
As for the greater wind demon, possibly a tier 2 but I don't think we can say that. Greater wind demon could just mean a better t1 race, the way a chaos seed human is simply superior to a regular human.
We know the imp only has a fragment of his power in the land at the moment, but that his true tier is 5+. Richter saw as much when he managed to piss the imp off. I'm not so sure even that fragment wouldn't put him way above both the lich and the wind demon. He is by his own account a demon lord whose family rules entire planes.
I think the comparison of mental landscapes is what really shows that the Litch is a higher tier. In book 8 chapter 40 Richter sees his tier 2 mental landscape for the first time, and thinks that the Litch must have been at least tier 3 if not higher due to the power of his thought constructs.
Your definitely right about the imp though, Richter thought that it was at least tier 3 or 4 when he saw its full power.
Nah imp was tier 2 grade 6 or some shit, lots more powerful but... the power behind the imp may have been a talent or it could be that the imp is an avatar of something else. Neither changes its power in the land otherwise the imp would not likely have quit the battle.
No but it might be significant in future battles if the imp can use knowledge from his domain against Richter or bring servants from the plane(s) ruled by his family.
I didn't really take it as a talent, but more like the avatar of a greater power.
After reading more examples of higher tiered being in gods eye, I have to think the linch was tier two, with a low possibility of being tier three. I think it likely the daemon was tier three, and possibly only tier two. And the Hearth Mother is also likely tier two.
Higher tiered beings are increasingly powerful. Not to go into spoilers but I don’t believe Ritcher would have been able to defeat the linch through what was effectively luck and guile if the linch was more than tier two. Perhaps a tier three being would have been able to scour the forest of nadria without the power of an exile; these guys are kingdom enders.
Remember the linch also had access to an advanced mausoleum and used a powerful magic, eldrith. Without the mausoleum however the linch would have failed to defeat the daemon, and had to call upon the special power of the leveled core building in order to do so. Effectively the daemon was more powerful, and as the type of daemon is greater, it could be a fair bet the day daemon was tier three to the linches tier two, but not necessarily, as he could have just been a higher rank.
I don't see a reason the Lich would need to be tier 2 to be immensely powerful, on the flipside I find it unlikely that he would have been able to form a powercore if most of his power is from the sarcophagus rather than his own efforts. A high enough levelled tier one could easily be stronger than a tier 2 anyway.
The imp was shocked Richter was already forming his powercore, which implies its rare. Hitting your (soft) level cap doesn't guarantee tiering up will be an option or even desirable (might be worth it to wait if you are working towards a specific evolution), it just means that unless you can tier up forward progression involves a lot more grinding for the same reward.
Tier 2 to 3. I'd argue 3, cause Nien was like lvl 48 or something creature. And Litch looked at him as expendable lvl 0 imp. Don't think Only Tier 2 would do that.. sure it could. but does not feel like it.
Issue is that really extra few understand WTF is Litch?
Master Mage! Yes Just Like Sumiko 125 yo +
Grandmaster Magus sure.. Full Necromutation spell from fleshbag to imortal entity is not easy to cast nor to level up to that power.
An immortal entity that does not sleep, east, or drink. Also has enchanced immunities to poisons etc.. stabbing does not do shit to him.
So say one becomes a Litch after few hundred years... what then? well how about diving to dugeons killing endless hordes of creatures and learning masteries in like 10 other magics..
This is not a simple being that just woke up killed some shit and now boom he has a mousoalem.. that requires planning, getting resources and living for a long time.
This guy has planned a lot. Like hundred years in advance at least. Litches are the hardest thing to kill in d&d's for a reason. They are pretty much unkillable.
What happens when you become a Litch, everything its like new life, you can start exploring endless depths.. no need to breathe.. You can travel multiple hells and harvest resources: no risk for magical mutation of your mortal flesh..
In the Land perhaps that would not be the best Idea.. but it depends how powerful are your other schools of magic!? Necroshit only gives you immortality and immunity. In order to slay Deamons you need different magics like Eldrich. Which handed seemed like was not fully mastered by the Litch.
I didn't get this impression. I figured the sarcophagus came later in his pursuits of undeath. I agree that he doesn't necessarily need to have been a higher tier but I believe he was.
Regardless of all that though I think the main reason his mind scape was vastly more impressive was his use (and supposed mastery) of actual Thought magic (corrupted though it may have been), as well as Profession talents. Orvin had a talent (Iron Will) that let him weather almas psi blast, and when nien fought he had armor from a talent (mental fortitude) as well as some minions in the scape from another talent (Intimidation). I can only imagine what mage talents could add.
That'd be me. No need to breath and basically unkillable? I'm about to spend around a decade (maybe longer) under water
Am curious about the crushing pressure though. Are lich bones still hollow?
I doubt he was ever a serious general of any sort. He might have been a Raistlin type adventurer mage except way, way, way dumber. No way he had the balls to dive into other realms in search of knowledge, someone like that wouldn't chain themselves as an exile's guard dog for centuries/millenia in a backwater such as the forest of Nadrria. He'd be out there seeking power, fighting with other power hungry dogs over scraps until he either became the biggest, baddest dog of them all or died.
A new fancy theory: he was a mildly successful mage who wanted more than his talents allowed. Therefore he turned to eldritch magic and for a time gained great power, but also accumulating a karmic debt. Eventually said debt came due with the powers actively working to destroy him and all his works. To survive the consequences he again used eldritch magic, which caught him in a vicious cycle of needing to use more and more eldritch magic to survive the consequences of using eldritch magic. To escape his fate he made a deal to serve the exile, was transformed into a lich by way of said deal and was guided to the cavern.
The mausoleum was most likely there before the Lich arrived (that's a possibilty I haven't seen raised elsewhere, yet to me it makes a ton of sense that the exile could easily have taken over existing facilities. We know the mist empire used necromancy and even the kindir had a major building supplying undead for the armies. Why not one for the mist empires own use`? ).
The sarcophagus was the primary artifact of a death cult that the lich wiped out, with the effigy being built afterwards. In return for all what the exile has done for the lich, the lich becomes his eternal guard dog, sworn to protect the effigy and keep the sarchophagus out of the hands of other god worshiping fools.
Here we go again hehe
"I doubt he was ever a serious general of any sort." Litch has ~ 20k undead army, with mages, archers, rogues, Collosal titans, infantry etc.. Vampire master mages.. Professed Focussed Specialized Knights.. dude if this is not an army I do not what is. Was Litch a great general, yes? no? Lets find out! Lets find out. Clearly troops were located by power level by level, he had hundreds of traps.. I'd bet he was pretty good as a war leader, prompts said he was higher rank. also He planned a awesome invasion at least logistically.. Will take over MV, a POP, lots of new undead.. I'd bet on him any day as long as he is not fighting our Luckey boyo.
"someone like that wouldn't chain themselves as an exile's guard dog for centuries/millenia in a backwater such as the forest of Nadrria" This is just false. This is not how these relationships work. Or should. You wanna be strong? Yes! So you need an artifact "Staff of Cathulu".. You worship Exile, Build a statue for him, he gives you artifact. Now you wanna what? be strong? Yes! You need another artifact.. you sac 100 moles to the Exile you get another artifact etc... God is not someone whom you must follow always, you can betray him, then follow another God.. sure will have to deal with his wrath but that's easy. If you already have 10 artifacts from him. This is a beneficial relationchip as long as it serves both. You can quit any time. Though book migh not really portray it that well, but Litch was not super upset he lost the Exiles protection.. and he still had his artifact staff.
Litch will become a God relax, but first he has to master 10 said magic schools(for f.e. fire storm spell that burs everything 100m randius), and one needs exp for that.. kills.. exp lives on the surface. when they are gone Litch will travel the labyrynts! you only need 4 thing for this: Be Litch(no food/sleep/etc), Know many magics(teleportation, summoning, fire, earth, to deal with anything you meat in the Labirynth), MANA REGEN(infinite, chaneling pretty much), powerful artifacts(kinda, but only for resistances and mana regen.)
Interesting theory, few points.. Litch was pissed that the statue was destroyed but not super pissed. He did not seem like a guard dog to the Exile, but a partner.. who decided to part ways after a bad deal. He did not had a Goal to avenge his Diety, or reconnect with him.. he was just pissed that Richo broke down his crib. About Litch entrapment.. he had waged war with the previous masters of the mists.. not a single master.. so he lived for a long time. Eldrich magic would have killed him quickly. If your theory is corrrect Litch had to start worshipping the exile like 50-500 yo ago.. which kinda seems off, becasue in 50yo you could take over a continent
1) Doesn't make him a serious general. It makes him a dude with a large army. Never said he wasn't a general, just that he was horrendously bad at it. He tried to get fancy with a big risk high reward scenario when he could have grinded the village down with traditional tactics easily. No general worth his salt would make an all or nothing bet when victory was already in hand. For an insane supervillain/ exile worshipper on the other hand its precisely the kind of overly complicated plan that ends up backfiring badly.
2) The lich was effectively on his knees with tears and snot running down his face, begging the exile for a second chance. That's not a partnership, that's a servant(slave)/master relationship. And sure, he could leave. He'd have an army of true believers hunting him down, but he could do it.. Same way I can go to North Korea and proclaim their beloved leader has a tiny dick from the street corners. I'd die horribly after being tortured and broken, but I could do it.
3) None of that makes sense given his character and actions.
4) Same as two.
The lich is nowhere near the powerlevel needed to take a continent, even with his exile master backing him up its questionable whether he could beat the woodland tribes in Nadria, let alone the bigger kingdoms. 20.000 undead sounds like a lot until you realize that the ashstalkers have a population in the hundreds of thousands, including powerful magic users and champions of their own (some of whom probably have broken through to a higher tier). That's just one goblin tribe, even if its one of the biggest tribes in the peninsula.
I thought it was like mid tens (30-40K)?