Discussion in 'Debates & Discussions' started by Dragon, May 12, 2020.
Good thoughts. Personally I think healthcare needs to remain free, it prevents unnecessary suffering and looking at real world numbers, it is cheaper for the average citizen.
Now as for Richter's economic situation.
For the first year everything is free of charge, yet people are being paid very high salaries compared to the norm. This leads to some major problems.
According to Randy they have the funds to pay their people for a few months more, after that they are basically out of cash. So far newcomers have joined the 1-year program. With a massive caravan filled with refugees and migrants headed towards the village (no idea how many, somewhere between 300-1500 people would be my guess), and who knows how many subsequent waves of refugees headed towards a safe space in the coming months, his economy is about to crash. While booming. Which is an odd situation to say the least, but its happening.
If Richter defaults on government salaries morale will plummet, loyalty will as well but likely not to the same degree, what's worse is that production levels will fall and their ability to wage war will be crippled.
The dungeon might help the government keep its ass above water if they can get some dungeoneering groups up and running. On the other hand Richter will be paying out a lot of gold every two weeks (growing with every wave of refugees and migrants), so it could take a while before the taxes from the dungeon alone covers government spending. If it ever does. It will extend the period before bankruptcy all else remaining the same.
A market would help some as well, though considering food, crafting materials, schematics, knowledge and so on are provided for free there are only a few things a thrifty landborn really needs.
Exploration of various ruins could land them another windfall. Hoping for that isn't a solid strategy, and frankly it is only going to get harder to get sufficiently large windfalls as the population grows. I'd still be going down every hole I could find in search of money, but it wouldn't be my main strategy
Then there are the less palatable means.
An income tax would effectively cut government spending. The problem is that it would be instituted as a way for Richter to get around his pledges. No question they will eventually need an income tax, but its probably best to wait until a private sector exists.
A wealth tax could cover government spending entirely.
Selling or paying with promisory notes. People won't like being paid with IOU's but its infinitely better than defaulting. If they are lucky they can sell enough to Richter's loyalists to pay the remainder in hard cash. Might end up with a debt equal to 200-300% of bnp, but the good thing is the village economy is growing fast enough that such a debt will be a minor burden after a few years.
He already instituted a tax (5%) once he built the town hall, that got doubled to 10% once he upgraded it to level 2.
Book 7 chapter 88
The “frugal” part of him also realized that he could start selling his rings to his fighters to offset the large amount of wages they had coming at the end of the year. The Townhall had helped the money issue somewhat and the new tax of 5% on wages had gone over without a hitch, just like the building prompt had promised. The taxes only saved him about thirteen gold per fortnight.
Lets see how MV can get some money then!
TownHall lvl 3: 1-10% Taxes= No Penalty; So we without a penalty add 10% tax. It's a good beginning right.
Kindr settlement and other tribes, pay us taxes. Probably also from 5-10% based on Townhall level and stuff, so some income, its good too. In comparison It'll be up to ~3% of current MV taxes. If total MV tax (10% from townhall +~3% from the other settlements like kindr.) Total: 13% Tax.
Dungeon Tax is 50%.
Initial Dungeon excursion by Richto & his crew.
Killed 36 Tuskers. Under 1h. 10% of Beasts yielded loot.
1 Silver, 7 coppers
1 Health concoction restoring : Will restore 20 Health Points over 114 seconds, I'd assume this is still worth more than 3-4 coppers. Lets say total loot is 2 Silver +-
Next Dungeon excursion:
Killed some beasts..
4 Silver Coins and 28 Copper Coins
Health Potion: Will restore 19 Health Points over 119 seconds. 3 coppers
Stamina Potion: Will restore 31 Stamina Points over 115 seconds. 3 coppers
Health Potion: Will restore 8 Health Points over 143 seconds. Will degrade your mana regeneration by 0.2/sec for the same duration. 1 copper
High Steel Dagger -5coppers
Common Soul Stone - 5coppers
Total: 8 silvers 6 coppers.
If we look at these two as a possible range of Loot in $ for the beginning lvl noobs: Its from 2 Silver to 8.6 silver under 1h of work.
Sure it depends weather our best and brightest go to show off their Cohones or the "Expendables from the latrine duty"
For this reason In my next calculation I'll just use 2x time spend for the basic dudes dungeneering calculation:
Basic team(5 dudes): 2h of work per shift, 2-8.6 silver reward per shift.
With insane healing boosts everyone should be able to dungeneer pretty much every other day. At least 2h or better 4h. with brakes.
So within 14 days(a Fortnight), we will have 7 days of dungeon diving with 4h per day, remaining time is for healing, but this is just for the beginning period until we get stronger, and with healing magics and lvl 3 healing building and lvl 103 healing master, this is way too pessimistic. Most likely they will be able to dungeon dive at least 10x in 14 days.
So a Fortnight(14 days) with 7 days dungeon diving with 2 excursions per day we will get:
Total$$ = 7 days * 2 excursions per day * 2-8.6 silver = 28 silver - 120.4 Silver
PartyMemberProfit$: (28 silver - 120.4 Silver) - 50% tax = (14 silver - 60.2 silver) / 5 = 2.8 - 12.04 Silver per Dungeon miner
MVTax$: 14 -60 silvers per team. Avg $ => 37 Silvers. per 14 days.
Say we will have 5 dudes per team, at least 20 teams(100 dudes geoengineering is even less than entire militia that MV now has lol, and they don't have to do this at the same time).
MVTaxFor20Teams$: 280 - 1200 silver. Avg $ =>740 Silvers. per 14 days.
Now lets add the Dungeon loot bonus of +50%
Total$$ = 7 days * 2 excursions per day * 3-12.9 silver = 42 silver - 180 Silver. Avg 111 silver per team.
Now with 30% dark magic power loot bonus
Total$$ = 7 days * 2 excursions per day * 4-16.7 silver = 42 silver - 180 Silver. Avg 144 silver per team.
MVTaxFor20Teams$: 144Silver * 20 teams => 2880 Silvers. per 14 days. ~ 5800 Silver per month.
YearlyDungeonTaxesFor20Teams$: 5800 Silver per month * 14 = 81200 Silver = 8120 Gold.
Current salary owed to 646 workers + scribes + Randolphus, each fortnight: 258.2 = 256 + 1.2 + 1
Fortnights remaining in first year 26.5
Coin needed to pay out debts at end of first year 8,292.3 = 659.4 + 790.6 + 258.2*26.5
Total coin on hand (hard coin + kobold silver) 8,680.97
So Total Dungeon tax for remaining year 2880 Silver * 26.5 Fortnights = 7632 Gold * 10% treasury tax=> 8395 Gold > (total debt 8,292.3)
However this is an initial calculation, and with time, returns from dungeon diving will increase exponentially.
So if we charge 10% town hall tax from 8,292.3 => 829 Gold. (3% from kidr is 250 gold +-)
Total tax income 1100 gold.
If we just look at the fortnight : 258.2 Gold salaries and avg 288 Gold tax form dungeon 307 Gold with 10%treasury tax.
258.2 Salary tax of 10% is 26 gold. Kindr tax is 3% of townhall tax => 9 Gold.
So every month with Townhall Tax, Kindr Tax and Dungeon Tax we gain
TotalBalance$: 307(dungeon tax)+26(townhall tax)+9(kindr tax) -259(sallaries) = 83 Gold of Profit. so at least 30% profit every month.
Without a dungeon this would be really though. However from year 2 we will tax food, housing, healing etc..
Now add the profits form sprite citizens taxation, no salaries for them.
Add the taxes we will get from market, when its build and we will easily have
Also trade with other settlements.. easily over 100% profit form what we have to pay as salaries.
This one of the reasons why we really need to grow the dungeon even more +60% loot, +50% resources for next lvl (think about elementum!):
"The six slain Chupacabras have provided a base 2,280 DPs" So kill another -> we ONLY need another 36.4 Chiupakabras to reach next settlement level.
Handed Chupakabra is a Labyrinth lvl beast, so no so easyto find such stron lvl creatures outside, however now with two other powers unlocked.. If there is any power difference at all it should be much less than it was before. even if equivalent is 100 forest beasts.. high level ones.. still 100 beasts is not a lot!! Also Dungeon generates Like 300DP's a day! This has to be a priority. And building 4 more rooms should be super easy, considering Richter still has the free room bonus. With this we should get another settlement specialization bonus. But More we will get +60% more loot and +50% more resources.
I wonder if once the Dungeon Specialization Settlement Bonus gets to the next Level and the Magic Affinity gets increased to plus 10% will Richter gain an extra Level in that Magic, assuming that the 10% are in the same magic and not separated into two different 5% in two different Magics?
And will once the Dungeon Specialization Level gets high enough will it also grant % Affinity in Blood and Chaos Magics, or even a Random increase in any of the Deeper and Higher Magics? If so then not only might more Mages of those types in the Village but Richter might get Access to a New Magic!
Klaps normally. Well done, I failed to find a point where your logic falls. Don't worry i'm sure to find something later.
I think its going to take a couple weeks to a month to get the teams up and running - ill assume we are talking military only for now - but after that it should even out. If a 5-man team can survive the current dungeon that is. The pigs Richter faced had a level 22 evolved boss, that thing was nasty as hell.
Worse it could have destroyed a regular dungeon party with its dozens of level 10-20 children. The mean level (average monster level) for the first floor is 8-17 as of book 8 (8-12 in book 7), but there are likely stronger creatures around (if they are as comparatively strong as king piggy, they could be up to level 34 and evolved), plus we have no idea whether they will still swarm. A five-man party may be too little for this dungeon. Isn't the average level for the fighters below 12-15?
Even after setup, one major issue remains. What about the caravan headed towards the mist village? Richter has offered all newcomers a generous salary, and its unlikely they'd survive dungeondiving, which means they'll be heading into other sectors that won't generate an immidiate revenue stream.
Also gonna need a lot more housing
True. Given their current building point output, i'm not too worried. It might mean they are right back to crowded housing, or worse.
Of course, Mama was a really big deal in Law, if she has levered her resources and influence the right way there is no telling just how many people she is bringing. Assuming she isn't bringing thousands of people they should be fine.
might need to transform those long houses into enclosed blocks, with a courtyard in the middle. Then, when you have found the shrubbery, you must place it here, beside this shrubbery, only slightly higher so you get a two layer effect with a little path running down the middle.
Your skill of herb lore (level 2, affinity 25%) has morphed into the skill Shrubbery (level 2 affinity 100%)! Terrible though you were with the plants of the Land, unable to retrieve even the most basic of ingredients, you have gone above and beyond in their cultivation, useless as they were to you. +2% per level to the growth of non-useful plants, tended by you, with max growth under 10 feet. +0.75% per level to the plants resistance to pests, disease and drought. Masters of this skill can even add little paths running down the middle. For being the first to unlock this skill the Universe gifts you a wooden buggy
That is correct young man!
Floor 1, not too hard unless dungeon becomes sentient or self aware, just try doing kiting. Also we have safe rooms? The barbicon?
+50% attack & defense
+30% attack speed and movements
+9% movement & attack speed from the portal as a bonus
+10% to concealment and perception, trap detection etc..
+2 Strength points form mortal enemy Stone giant
Enchanted Armour & Weapons (better than avg adventurer I hope)
Healing, Mana, Stamina potions(some at least)
Tactics while working in a team
Almas MindBlast, And other spells. Easy way to help others level up.
Use the golumn perhaps, rent it out
Use traps, poison, be creative
Use mist workers in the dungeon as a distraction/summoned shield(when things go bad)?
Could carry your ass out or delay the beasts..
Now without these benefits(pretty big ones) it would be a blood bath, probably will be with these too, still this is a much better scenario than what we could have otherwise.
I think it would be a good time to open a Dungeon Dungineering School!
Have a preset levels for each floor, also minimum gear required.
With Randy as a lead lecturer, perhaps have at least one lvl above 20 dude in a group.
Even Richto got his ass kicked in the first level, well at least a bit.
The way how this could be done by the little monsters is by pulling one by one and ganging up on it near the barbicon.
Pull max 3 beasts usually 1, then gang up on it.
It all depends from tactics even lvl 30 group could die being swarmed by 200 lvl 8 boars..
Or Group of 5 lvl 12 dudes could take out a single lvl 17 miniboss.
Adventure and Danger. Preparation and application.
With Almas Mind Blast we could easily power level everyone to say lvl 14, then we don't care.
First levels are cheap. Also we have a lot of bonus xp potions.
I believe you have heard the training of the Granite breakers, yes?
We have to do similar training, but with better safety and technical focus/superiority.
the extra attack and defense, concealment and perception, and movement bonus from the specialization only apply to Richter (Ruler Bonuses). He did also get a bonus that applies to his party members but they'd have to party with him specifically to receive a +20% attack and defense. Overall the citizens are actually kind of screwed in terms of direct benefits from this specialization all the way until the +5% affinity in the basic elements, which will reach +50% by spec level 10 if the current bonus patterns hold true, allowing literally everyone at a minimum 1 basic element magic, even it they can only get to level 1. (but then they could possibly use quickening and other mist v benefits to raise that higher.)
Which would most likely make the Mage Settlement Specialization Perk worth getting.
... I mean I get it, but I want technocrat
Edit: also maybe not though, initially yes you blow past the starting requirement, but as seen with the Adventurer specialty, that will only increase along with new and possibly very difficult requirements, which could be difficult to complete in reasonable time frame (10% of PoP journeyman rank magi would be a shitty one, and take a suuuper long time compared to the time scale the books are currently operating on, and effectively halt the spec leveling all together)
Wow, good notice.
So the citizens only have:
+9% movement speed
+20 Luck( temporary boost +4Luck permanent form Kindr)
Its still something..
We really need Maulers bones on the Townhall wall lol
Still even with previous minor bonuses and enchanted weapons & armour & potions..
It's not that bad..
I standy by my suggestion to level up every dungeneer to lvl 14 or so until they would be at least able to fight in lvl1
Maybe Use Alma to initially help them, and later on just camp one cave where 1 beast spawns every 10 minutes or so...
Gonna be tricky in the beggining, but when dungennering partys will reach lvl 20 our investments should pay off.
As for the finances of the MV, one important note is that even though the villages expenses continue to grow. Richter has continued to collect enough treasure regularly to stay ahead of the demand. This would likely continue. With that said it is apparent that the dungeon tax coupled with the village specialization will result in a financial boom for the MV finances.
I would seriously be surprised if, after returning from the raid, and mourning their losses, Randy and Sion did not immediately organize dungeon diving teams to farm the dungeon for XP and resources. This is doubly true knowing that the hunters have stopped leaving the village daily.
Be a good way to Level the Hunters and Guards.
As well as Miners (once they find the Metal Deposites) and Herbalists and Crafters, ect.
Ok so I think Poke made a pretty good case as to how much they can expect to make and how much they need to payout. He might be adding the specialisation a few times more than he should, and they'd probably have 12 8-man teams instead of the 20 5-man teams he envisioned, but its still a pretty good guess. Faster hunting and the ability to take on stronger creatures as well as larger groups will more than make up for having to split the loot 8 ways. Once up and running the Dungeon will cover base government spending, but the gold won't be flowing endlessly.
One problem with setting up these teams is.
1) The first floor of the dungeon is going to be a major challenge for a team with an average level of 15, and below that I wouldn't let them enter as they would certainly die or suffer unnecesarily heavy losses. Such a party would be limited to hunting in the lower-leveled areas, as bosses like the evolved pig could wipe them on his own, let alone with dozens of level 10-20's backing him up.
2) They have a relatively small manpool to draw on. The majority of villagers are not fit for dungeondiving currently, being below level 10. Mostly the people that are fit for it are in the army or they are hunters. The professional crafters have the levels, but they are neither hunters nor warriors, sending them to hunt monsters is a good way to get rid of them.
I'd be surprised if they find much more than 50 people that are ready to enter the dungeon immidiately, with a few dozen more needing some powerlevelling to have a shot at surviving an area crawling with powerful monsters.
Randy and HM could probably powerlevel another team each by taking them into bossfights as using the low-levels as meatshields while they themselves deal the damage.
Its certainly possible they will find thousands more in gold in various ruins, but relying on luck isn't a strategy, its the opposite. Besides one-time windfalls have the biggest impacts when the population/ base is small. When the caravan arrives his population may double or tripple, as will his expenses to salaries.
Dungeon parties are limited to 5 man teams, unless someone evolves their individual mark to increase the party size.
Richter cheats with Companionship
The big thing now is a market. He's got the populace, he's got people making extra items and services for them to buy, he can even make items for them as well, just needs a proper place for people to buy and sell things.
Right you are. In that case they should be an average of level 17-18 for the first floor to be as safe in a 5-man group as in an 8-man group, an average of level 15 would probably still be sufficient for some parts of the first floor. That limits the number of people that qualify even further.
Do they even have enough people that are powerful enough to form half a dozen teams?