The 'Game-i-ness' Hall of Fame

Discussion in 'All Things LitRPG' started by Windfall, Jul 12, 2018.

  1. Windfall

    Windfall Level 18 (Magician) LitRPG Author Citizen

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    So I've just decided to try to make 'game-i-ness' a real concept that people talk about, because it's something I'd really like to see more of -- much more of, actually. So this post is an updated version of what I've posted on reddit when someone asked me to explain.

    What is game-i-ness?
    I'll define it loosely here: 'game-i-ness' happens in encounters where readers or the audience are aware of the rules of engagement. Once you have the 'rules' or 'conditions' in place in a rather explicit manner, you turn an encounter into a game scenario. Like in sports, you know what people have to do to score, and to win, and since you know how it all works, it makes watching it fun.

    The manga/anime Hunter X Hunter is pure game-i-ness. The whole thing is based on this concept, and it's used to amazing complexity. The rules get explained or presented to you in some way, then you see people play. So on top of the complex interactions of rules, sometimes you also have character-driven conditions that add yet another degree of complexity to the encounters. It's pure beauty to watch.

    There are degrees of game-i-ness, and game comes in many forms. Sports are game-y in nature. Intrigue is game-y. Even 'dating' can be game-y. In fantasy stories where a deity grants the hero three wishes, that's game-y, because now it creates a rule: you get three wishes, what are you going to do with them? When someone allows you to ask only three questions, it's game-y in the same way. When you say something to Person A, but it's actually meant for Person B but you can't let Person A be aware of the fact, it's game-y. Here, however, since we're talking about LitRPG, I'd like to concentrate on the 'game-i-ness' of game mechanics.


    Why game-i-ness?
    I'll put it simply: anything that is a game is fun. And it's a certain kind of fun. It's 'game' fun. There's something inherently stimulating about it.


    Note: game-i-ness is not a necessity
    I've said somewhere before, but I'll say this again here for the sake of having everyone in one place: being set in a game world does not automatically make a story 'game-y'. It can be creative, and very fun and engaging to read, but game worlds are just settings.

    And I'll say this very clearly: game-i-ness doesn't actually make a story better. There are great, great stories that exist without game-i-ness. For example, The Lord of the Rings has no game-i-ness. The Hobbit does have some in the riddle scene. Game-i-ness is a kind of flavor. There are other kinds of fun that have nothing to do with game-i-ness.



    An example of game-i-ness:

    Level 1 game-i-ness goes like this ---

    (Some scenes)

    Scene: MC goes into a low-level cave and discovers Frost Mushrooms that freezes people in place and slowly eats their health. He defeats the mushrooms, gets some XP.

    (Other scenes in between)

    Scene: Orcs invade the village. The orc leader is 10 levels above the MC and all the villagers. There's no way they can defeat the orcs.

    Scene: Instead of fighting the orcs directly, MC leads orc leader into cave and lets the Frost Mushrooms take care of him.




    -----


    If you want more advanced game-i-ness, you can do something like this:

    (Some scenes)

    Scene: MC goes into a low-level cave and discovers Frost Mushrooms that freezes people in place and slowly eats their health. He tries to smash them, but finds that they reflect 2x melee damage back onto the attacker, and they can only be defeated by magic. MC manages to figure a way to kill the mushrooms, gets some XP.

    (Other scenes in between)

    Scene: MC gets a spell called Conceal, which allows him to sneak up on people.

    (Other scenes in between)

    Scene: MC uses Conceal in some context. Maybe he casts it on a spell book to hide it when the bad guys are searching for it.

    (Other scenes in between)

    Scene: Orcs invade the village. The orc leader is 10 levels above the MC and all the villagers. There's no way they can defeat them.

    Scene: MC is out of mana and can only cast one more spell. They come up with the strategy to run into the cave and for the MC to cast Conceal on himself to get away from the Frost Mushrooms, and hopefully the Frost Mushrooms will take care of the orc leader.

    Scene: MC leads orc leader into cave. He finds out, to his horror, that the orc leader has a hidden piece of epic gear that makes him completely immune to frost damage, so the Frost Mushrooms can't drain his health. Orc leader laughs as he injures the MC and gloats about his epic gear. MC retreats further into the cave. What do we do now? MC does some quick thinking and casts his last Conceal on a Frost Mushroom instead of himself, taunts the orc leader into hitting him, while he dives behind the mushroom. Orc leaders hits mushroom instead, and the mushroom explodes melee damage back onto the orc leader, killing him.


    ---

    That's some delicious game-i-ness. You see what I mean? You have several conditions interact with each other in that one last encounter. The MC being low on mana also adds to the game-i-ness, because it imposes another limitation on the situation.

    So... what do the readers need to know for them to be able to fully enjoy the encounter?
    - Frost Mushrooms drains life with frost magic
    - Frost Mushrooms do bad things to do when you attack it physically
    - The MC has Conceal
    - Conceal can be cast on other things rather than the user

    When the orc leader shows up, we add more 'rules/conditions':
    - Orc leader is too strong to be fought directly
    - The MC is low on mana, so he can only cast one more spell

    When they actually get into the cave, we add even more 'rules/conditions':
    - Frost Mushrooms cannot damage orc leader with their frost magic

    Then it all comes together when we ask the MC what he's going to do with this situation, under all these conditions, with all the tools available to him.


    What is not game-y
    If the MC levels and gets Skill A, Skill B, Skill C, Skill D, and he fights a Hell Monster using all these skills. It can be a very fun and very fine adrenaline-fueled fight, but it's not game-y in nature.

    It only starts to get game-y when he realizes he cannot fight the monster, and then choose to launch Skill B at the cave wall instead of the monster and have the cave wall collapse on it. Mulan's idea about shooting the rocket at the snow peak to create an avalanche instead of shooting directly into the approaching enemy army is in the same vein.


    Some commonly-used situations that might not be actual game-i-ness but contribute to the overall feeling of game-i-ness
    - Taunting enemies into attacking blindly adds a little bit of low-level game-i-ness. (Low-level doesn't mean bad, just 'not very game-y')
    - Characters noticing something vital about the enemy or the environment at the last second that turns the tide of the battle. For example, "There's water on the floor, and a sparkling electrical wire. Let's lure the alien there and electrocute it". Note: Smaug's missing scale in The Hobbit doesn't really qualify for this, because of how it's presented. However, the conditions are there, and the whole thing can be 'recut' to make it feel game-y.
    - Characters who have been avoiding using a skill or ability because the cost is too high, who decides at the last second to use that skill or ability to solve the problem. For example, a peace-loving vampire who hasn't had blood for the longest time is weak and is about to be killed. The situation is dire, however, and he chooses to activate his vampire strength, going 'full vampire', at the risk of losing himself forever and/or killing people he loves.
    - Three-way standoffs.
    - Any situation where the readers/audience are led to believe there is no way out of. (Done well, this will lead to good game-i-ness. Done badly, it leads to deus ex machina)

    So, to add game-i-ness to a story
    1) Rule exposition: state the rule
    2) Rule demonstration: show readers how the rule works in a real situation
    3) Rule in action: this is where you let everything your set-up thus far come together and pay off

    1&2 can be combined. But if you do them separately, 2) itself will already feel a little game-y. Or, you can do 2) first, then have the characters do some inductive reasoning to arrive at 1) -- both of which are good.

    In reality, most of the time you're probably going to have to think about how you want 3) to play out first, then you will know which rule to give to the readers in advance.

    Game-i-ness has as much to do with the presentation as the mechanics involved
    The most important thing is that the readers/audience are aware of the rules at the time of the pay off. Sometimes it's all an illusion. Sometimes it's really all smoke-and-mirrors, but that's exactly the same thing as the art of foreshadowing. It's a magic trick that needs to be crafted with much preparation behind the scenes.


    So, in this thread I want to explore the concept of game-i-ness, and thoughts, opinions, examples are all very welcome! I will also try to give more examples of when I see authors add game-i-ness to their stories.

    Also, derail all you like. :)
     
  2. Windfall

    Windfall Level 18 (Magician) LitRPG Author Citizen

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    A (tiny) bit of game-i-ness from Dungeon Born:

    Cal deciding to release Glitterflits (the golden healing bunnies) to heal the party to help them defeat the Distortion Cat.

    Readers know that:
    - The situation is dire
    - There are golden bunnies hidden in the boss room
    - Bunnies heals

    It's not very complicated, but it adds a nice flavor. To the story's credit: that's not even what the whole scene is trying to do. It's just a cherry on top. What the scene is trying to get at is Cal 'dungeon-born-ing' Dale.

    I'd say if the healing bunny trick is all that the scene is trying to do, it will be a little weak for a climax.
     
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  3. Windfall

    Windfall Level 18 (Magician) LitRPG Author Citizen

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    I'll analyze the prison assassination attempt bit in The Way of the Shaman once I re-download it and get the 'rules' right, because that's one of the best examples I've ever seen of game-i-ness.
     
  4. Thomas Davidsmeier

    Thomas Davidsmeier Level 12 (Rogue) LitRPG Author Citizen

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    This is what I thought LitRPG was. I've been trying to work this in throughout my book so far. Don't know if it rises to the level of what you're talking about...
     
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  5. Herko Kerghans

    Herko Kerghans Biased Survivor LitRPG Author Citizen

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    This is a fantastic read! =)

    And I fully, entirely and completely agree that it's a term that should be a real concept.

    My partial disagreement (which, as usual, I cannot fully put into words) is that the way you define it in your post is perhaps a bit too broad?

    As in: I think "game-i-ness" as something that games possess, literature at large does not, and LitRPG tries to bring (translate?) from games into literature, and as such it would be one of its (or the?) defining features.

    By your examples, what you define as "game-i-ness" would be, in my personal and not-very-well-thought-out opinion, a bit too close with just "being creative", or "thinking out of the box".

    Your example about Mulan using rockets to melt the snow, for example: I think nobody would have problem describing that as "being creative" or "outta box thinking".

    I guess my train of though here is: if Mulan is clearly an example from a movie...

    ... the MC leading an Orc to hit an invisible mushroom is something that could happen in a regular Fantasy novel, or on a cartoon in Cartoon Network...

    ... and could all be described as "MC being creative"...

    ... why would we need the term "game-i-ness" to describe the above, when an existing term would suffice?

    And, more importantly: if we can fully agree that there seems to be such thing as "game-i-ness", what is game-y about those, that "creative thinking" would not convey?

    (My personal take is that is has something to do about "situations that happen in games but don't happen in real life"; I'm thinking here more along some of your other examples in reddit, about an MC going "I have a total of 10,000 hitpoints; now I have 900; the Orc will hit me for 890 but I will be able to Fireball his green ass; yeah, let's do this." In real life, nobody that is at 0,01% of his life would be able to function, yet in games we do, and we take that fact into account to solve problems... sometimes, on top of that, in an "out of box" way).


    For clarity's sake: sorry if the above is not clear, I find the topic and the concept are great (and important!), just trying to offer some quickly-put-together counterpoints! =)
     
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  6. Simon Fiasco

    Simon Fiasco Bringer of the Avocadopocalypse LitRPG Author Beta Reader Citizen Aspiring Writer

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    I'm not sure Windfall was using the term "game" (as in game-i-ness) in the sense that the character was in a game, but rather that the character was applying a type of game theory to the encounter. What he's described is called an imperfect information game, in which not all the players (which, in this case, would be the protagonist and the orc leader) have all the information necessary to make decisions, so they must make decisions based on the imperfect information they possess. (It's also a sort of evolutionary game, because the information available to the players changes based on evolving circumstances, offering players additional options that are not necessarily rational.)

    Essentially, "game-i-ness," in Windfall's examples (including the Mulan example) is the attempt by the players to game the system - generally speaking, to do something creative or to think outside the box - based on all the available variables.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2018
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  7. Herko Kerghans

    Herko Kerghans Biased Survivor LitRPG Author Citizen

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    Agreed! =)

    (EDIT for clarity: agreed that that's my reading of Windfall's OP, too, in "game-i-ness" not meaning "being in a game")

    That's why, methinks, the definition may be too broad to define that elusive "Whoa! Cool! This story I'm reading, although technically literature, feels like a videogame!" feeling that LitRPG conveys.

    (although perhaps another word is needed for that?)


    I'd say that "gaming the system" is something included in "thinking out of the box/thinking creatively", while not being the exact same thing.

    In video-gaming terms, "gaming the system" would be an exploit (something a loophole in the rules allows you to do that is contrary to the intention the Devs had); I guess that, in legal terms (I'm no lawyer) it would be finding a way to stick to the letter of the law while going again the law's spirit (without actually breaking said law; in videogames, that would be a hack).

    Gaming the system surely requires a great deal of creativity (sometimes a great deal of trial and error too), but I wouldn't equate it to "game-i-ness".

    On the other hand, I'd say that "game-i-ness" in LitRPG arises from some elusive "feels-like-a-videgame" moment that doesn't even requires "out of the box thinking". For example: an MC doing some complex mental calculations to see if they can survive until they are down to their last 1% of Life while bringing some NPC down; that kind of "game-i-ness" would not be creative thinking, but rather straightforward number-crunching problem-solving.

    Maybe I'm trying to put too many things into the same bag, though? o_O
     
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  8. Jay

    Jay Hiatus. LitRPG Author Beta Reader Citizen Aspiring Writer

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    Game-i-ness is definitely a fun idea that can definitely bring some neat flavor to LitRPG. A combination of cleverness + game mechanics is something that's always fulfilling to figure out in an MMO; at least for me. I like when I figure out how to beat/tame that special beast or beat that boss for his loot.
     
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  9. Windfall

    Windfall Level 18 (Magician) LitRPG Author Citizen

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    I thought LitRPG was this, too, but I was surprised to find much less of it than I thought! I'm always... looking for more ;)


    I really understand where you're coming from, and I'm aware I'm using 'game-i-ness' very loosely.

    Let me clarify the Mulan bit: I don't think that situation actually game-y. It starts to feel a bit like that, but not quite there. This is also true for all the 'almost game-i-ness cases' I listed. They're not that, but they're close to that feeling.

    Here's one thing, though: riddles and puzzles feel very game-y to me. Logic games (like Knights, Knaves and Liars) feel very game-y. A sphinx appearing at the fork in the road and allowing you to ask one 'yes-no' question to find out which way leads to heaven and which way leads to hell is extremely game-y. These examples are not 'thinking outside the box' or even 'creative'. It's problem-solving.

    So after some thought I'm redefining my definition of game-i-ness as: a situation where the character has a clear goal and is attempting to reach that goal using explicitly-stated rules (or rules that are explicit to the observer). This is exactly the nature of sports, I think, and 'game'.

    This is different from "feels-like-a-video-game", which I think is what you're after. Both can overlap, but are not exactly the same thing?

    I'll give an example:

    Awaken Online book 2:
    Jason and friends are waiting to ambush enemy players in a labyrinth, but they realize that the enemy players can't find their way in, so they 'kidnap' one player, blindfold him, while 'mentioning' the auto-map feature. This leads to the enemy player eventually leading his guild into a trap, since his map auto-updates and he can now find the way to where Jason wants them to be.

    This is full of the "feels-like-a-video-game" feeling that you're after, because we don't have auto-map in real life. Am I correct in this?

    But it doesn't feel game-y to me, because at the point of them carrying out that strategy, I hadn't realized beforehand that "blindfolded players still have their maps auto-update" -- I didn't know that rule. So that's creative thinking on Jason and co's part, but it doesn't feel game-y to me, as a reader.

    Now, if the fact that "blindfolded players still have their maps auto-update" has been foreshadowed or demonstrated to me in an earlier scene, that 'creative thinking' will feel game-y, since I'm in on the 'rule'.

    Let me know though if you haven't read this and would prefer no spoilers!


    So... I suspect that your 'game-y' and my 'game-y' are slightly different things. I like "feels-like-a-video-game" situations, too, and I agree that it's surprisingly infrequent in LitRPGs (and it's part of what I personally call: "video game insights" -- chances for the author to show that they love, love, love being in a video game and make me go "I know exactly how that feels!")

    Am I right in saying that "feels like a video game" situations that you're talking about involve things like:
    - Players acting like they're in a video game (complain about grinding, slow leveling, yelling "I can't believe we're actually going to wipe on this trash mob!" etc.)
    - Players thinking about optimizing their efficiency, build, stats, etc.
    - Someone jumping off a cliff when they're lost just to respawn in town
    - Crazy video game strats like... my invisibility potion lasts for 10 seconds, so I'm going to try to bypass this whole room -- only to realize that it doesn't work and now you've just pulled the whole dungeon
    - etc.

    If this is the case, I suspect it has a bit to do with the degree of 'self-awareness' that they're playing a game (which is a 'tone' thing?). A lot of LitRPGs treat game events like if the characters are in an actual fantasy world, and no one steps back and says "Whoaaa. Who designed that boss?"
     
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  10. Windfall

    Windfall Level 18 (Magician) LitRPG Author Citizen

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    You just reminded me of another thing that both "feels like a video game" and feels "game-y" to me: figuring out the encounter. Because it's essentially a kind of puzzle, and I love that (and LitRPGs need more puzzles, methinks)
     
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  11. Jay

    Jay Hiatus. LitRPG Author Beta Reader Citizen Aspiring Writer

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    I'd love to see more things like that in LitRPG.

    A lot of authors seem to think a deus ex machina is the same thing, such as "Oh, I found this magical item last chapter and now I pull it out and it WORKS!" is the same thing, but that's not really the same feel for me. That's more like dumb luck and feels kind of cheap to me. I'd rather see them go "Oh, it's an ice-based monster and a fire trap I had to avoid over there...heck, if I kite the monster TO the fire trap...". That just feels more game-y and clever to me.
     
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  12. Windfall

    Windfall Level 18 (Magician) LitRPG Author Citizen

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    Yes! Yes! Yes! This is exactly what I'm looking for.


    [And what follows is not a direct response to your post but me rambling some more:]


    I'd like to highlight to all authors, however, that the feeling of game-i-ness is really doable. And you don't even need the most brilliant idea to pull it off. It's more like the art of misdirection (which I will claim that it's part of good foreshadowing -- but that's a separate issue)

    If we want the magical item the MC found last chapter to work on the final encounter, there's a way to set it up that it's not a deus ex machina. All we need to do is:
    - Have magical item drop a bit sooner
    - Have MC try magical item somewhere else to 'demonstrate' what it does. Hopefully it will do something interesting in the same vein of what you want to do in the real encounter you're setting up for, but not exactly that OR you can cheat by adding a puzzle element. A very stupid example is: water magic is coded blue, fire magic is coded red, but I have a purple bottle -- what does this do?
    - Have MC use the magical item in the real encounter (Cheat way: have the MC 'figure out' the puzzle at this point -- this is a 'steam' monster! water + fire = steam and red + blue = purple -- throws purple bottle at steam monster, monster explodes! This is not very good at all, but I can appreciate the spirit, and as stupid as the mechanic or the MC is for not figuring it out sooner, I will still feel like the author tries)

    The fire trap example is great, because we just saw the MC avoid it so we know it's there before it becomes useful. In the exact same dungeon, with the same ice mobs and fire traps, if the author doesn't actually show the MC avoiding the fire trap before he runs into the ice mobs, MC's strategy will feel like a deus ex machina (e.g. if the MC runs into a different room and suddenly stumbles upon a fire trap). So I really think it's a matter of presentation, where the author needs to "make sure the readers know something" so at the right moment the strategy will feel clever and awesome.
     
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  13. Herko Kerghans

    Herko Kerghans Biased Survivor LitRPG Author Citizen

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    Yeah, a lot of overlap but covering sometimes different notions.

    In fact (not trying to be a hair-splitting smartass here, sorry if I sound like that!) I'd say you are very accurately defining "game", rather than "game-i-ness".

    Or, better yet: I think you are very accuraly describing "game-i-ness", while I'm trying to go for "videogame-i-ness"?

    (again not trying to sound like an asshole, sorry if I do!)

    I mean, let's take sport as an example. There's no doubt sports are games; as such, Soccer is a game, as the majority of the world population knows with this weekend being the Fifa World Cup Finals.

    Suppose we were to develop SoccerLit (don't tell Kong though! :p); that's to say, not just a story that happens in the world of Soccer, but something that "feels like I'm playing a Soccer match".

    In that sense, we would try not just to make it game-y, but rather soccer-y, right?

    Perhaps more accurately: soccer-y, if done right, would also have to be game-y (since soccer is a game)... but my points here would be:

    1) There's certainly something about the game-y nature of soccer that makes it different from other games (as in: soccer as a game expresses it's game-y nature in some ways that no other game does; therefore, SoccerLit needs to convey game-ness in a soccer-y way, and I hasten to add that PLEASE DON'T QUOTE ME ON THIS, BECAUSE I'M AWARE IT'S THE STUPIDEST THING TYPED ON THE WEB THIS WEEK, OR AT LEAST TODAY!! :p:p:p)

    2) Soccer is not just a game (just like no game is "just a game"), so SoccerLit needs to also convey the non-game-i-ness of soccer-ness. For example, Soccer has the hooligan subculture (while MMO gaming has the Guilds subculture). Therefore, soccer-i-ness has to cover those things, even when they are not strictly game-itic.


    I'd rate my chances of making sense below 20%, but there's still hope I hope!! o_O

    So, all in all, in the example above I have the feeling that you are going for game-i-ness, while I'm going for soccer-i-ness.

    Or, specifically, game-i-ness versus videogame-i-ness, does that make any sense? ("feels-like-videogame-i-ness" is definitely included in "game-i-ness" whenever the problem-solving involves game mechanics; but "feels-like-videogame-i-ness" is outside game-i-ness in, for example, the aesthetics of presenting a stat sheet. Of course the stat sheet can then go to serve a game-y scene, but I'd say that's what makes it feel videgame-y?)


    Quotefest, which I think nails it quite squarely (emphasis mine):


    Yyyep!

    In short: videogames are games, but on the one hand we derive experiences from them that are not game-y in nature (like the aesthetic pleasure of looking at a beatifully rendered landscape, or a cleverly designed interface that is not a clutter of useless information), and on the other hand they sometimes express their game-y nature in specific ways (as in, different from other types of games, like sports, and also different from when strategy based on Game Theory are applied to business decisions). I'd say that, in the context of LitRPG, "game-i-ness" conveys (at least to me! =) the sense of playing a videogame, thus both the non-game-y parts that are exclusive to videgames, and the game-y parts that set videogames appart from other games (on top of, no doubt, the game-y parts when videogames are "just games", and could work exactly the same as other type of games, or even as every other game).
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2018
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  14. ChamomileHasANovel

    ChamomileHasANovel Level 7 (Cutpurse) Beta Reader Citizen

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    In mysteries, there is a concept called the Fair Play Whodunnit, which is essentially that a good mystery is one the reader could reasonably figure out for themselves before the protagonist does. The climax isn't about the protagonist pulling out some shocking new piece of evidence that makes the culprit clear, but rather in assembling the evidence that was already there. This sounds like a similar concept, call it the Fair Play Strategy, where a reader could've come up with the same strategy. There's not anything like the auto-map function where the reader didn't know a critical component of the strategy even worked that way until after the protagonist was already incorporating it into their explicit plans, but rather all the elements used in the strategy are established in advance.
     
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  15. Herko Kerghans

    Herko Kerghans Biased Survivor LitRPG Author Citizen

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    Thing is: shouldn't readers, based on their understanding of MMOs, already anticipate that?

    (asking broadly here, not defending the particular example of the auto-map)

    In Whodunnits, there's a ton of things that the reader (and the investigator) cannot know until they find out, like that Mr. X was having dinner with Mr. Y at such and such time.

    But (to put a very silly example), pretty much everybody reading LitRPG can be reasonably expected to know that a Fireball is a ball of fire, and (to follow Mulan's example) if, while in the middle of snowy mountains, the MC hurls a Fireball to a glacier to cause an avalanche to wipe out some foes they could not have beaten in a head-to-head combat, I guess most readers would find it understandable, satisfying, and game-y, even if there was no previous instance of the MC melting ice or snow.

    It's probably quite a bit of a gray area between being too obvious and too obscure (which is always a challenge, I guess! =), but my point about video-game-i-ness would be: some of the most fun moments I remember in gaming is when I discover something new about how the game mechanics work, and the absolute most fun moments are when I discover it in the middle of a do-or-die situation. And I'd say that sort of discovery is what makes it "feel-like-a-game", so discovering that Fireballs do indeed melt the snow (when I'm about to die otherwise!) would be fantastic.

    For clarity: if it's standard Fantasy, then everybody (characters and readers) know that fire melts snow. It's, like, duh! So, in standard Fantasy, when a mage who is about to be crushed by some Orcs launches a Fireball at a glacier, we all understand what he is trying to do, we all know that it's theoretically possible, and we all know that given enough time and enough Fireballs, he will melt the snow; the suspense here is "will ONE fireball be enough to pull it off"?

    In a videogame, though... maybe Fireballs have no effect on snow at all! So in this case, the thrill is not just about wiping your foes, but also about discovering something about the game mechanics (or die trying!).

    And, in the case of the auto-map, there may even be the added joy for readers (which can certainly be ruined by too much obscurity!) to trying to guess what is the MC up to.

    In other thread, Windfall mentioned the fun of trying to guess what the MC will choose from a list of skills; methinks that would be yet another example of "feels-like-a-game", or "video-game-i-ness", and that pleasure of trying to guess what the MC will do also holds true, in my opinion, for when the MC is doing something and we are trying to guess which game mechanic they are trying to enforce.

    I guess, I think! =)
     
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  16. ChamomileHasANovel

    ChamomileHasANovel Level 7 (Cutpurse) Beta Reader Citizen

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    When presented with a finite list of skills, you can reasonably guess which one is going to be selected, especially if some of the options are clearly inferior to others. When presented with the infinite number of possible game mechanics, you cannot reasonably deduce what the MC is doing until after they're already doing it. This is doubly true since LitRPG is dense with poor game design, which means you're not even limited to design decisions that are actually fun, or even playable. Asking players to guess whether or not fire melts snow in a video game is about as exciting as trying to guess which side a coin will land on, or, for that matter, trying to guess the culprit to a murder mystery by just looking at the list and trying to suss out who seems to be acting funny without being so suspicious as to be an obvious red herring. If you can't figure out who did it using the clues that precede the climax, then it's not fair play, even though it is technically possible to land on the right answer completely at random if you take a wild guess. It's not a puzzle to solve. It's pure luck. If you like that, then great, I guess, but that's not what the thread is about. The topic of the OP is not to list any attribute of LitRPGs you like. It's to discuss a specific concept.
     
  17. Herko Kerghans

    Herko Kerghans Biased Survivor LitRPG Author Citizen

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    Ah! In that case, I hope we can agree to disagree, since it's probably a subjective matter. As a player myself, I do find it fun (generally speaking, of course, depending of how well the rest of the game is executed) trying to find how everything works. If there is some mechanic that lets players to set one thing on fire, I'll probably indulge my pyromaniac side and try to find out all the things that can be set on fire.

    (This is one axis in which games have become increasingly more fun for me (although of course that's not necessarily true for anybody else!), by becoming more complex; I can only imagine that the trend will progress, and LitRPG is always set in an universe where it has.)

    Then again, for players (or readers) that would find that boring, I do agree: that would certainly not be game-y in any way.
     
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  18. Windfall

    Windfall Level 18 (Magician) LitRPG Author Citizen

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    Yes, that makes perfect sense! And you're right that I'm actually talking about 'game', but I chose to use the word 'game-i-ness' (because it's more 'marked') in order to really highlight the fact that I'm looking for "game-like interactions of rules" on top of just "characters being in a game".

    And you're right that the 'game-i-ness' that I look for is actually in the broadest sense of 'game', because I've found that I greatly enjoy games in all forms. For example:

    (I'm putting this in spoilers because they're just long random examples of the various kinds of things I personally consider 'game-y')
    - Historical romance 'of manners' have a lot of 'game' in the interaction, where you play with the rules of polite society, get your meaning across by saying something else, and all that goodness.
    - The Count of Monte Cristo has a lot of 'gaming', where you play all the people (figuring out the 'rules' of what makes them tick) and have them all destroy each other
    - In Rurouni Kenshin, when Kenshin & friends storm Shishio's stronghold at the end of the second arc, that's framed around a 'game' structure, where you leave one person to fight an enemy in each room, while the rest of the party proceed deeper and deeper into the 'dungeon'. This is a very standard formula. The end of Harry Potter Book 1 has exactly this scenario.
    - Earthsea has a bit of 'game' when you realize that dragons don't view life and death the way humans do and you have to find a way to 'ask the right question' to get to the answer you want
    - The Pirates of the Caribbean -- when Jack Sparrow grabs a cursed coin at the end to give him temporary immortality, that's a very fine game moment.

    I came to LitRPG expecting to find a lot of it. You know, when I learned that LitRPG was a genre, I was really excited. I thought "Finally! A place where all forms of game-i-ness gather! This is totally going to be my thing!" -- but then I was wrong. I thought LitRPG readers looked for this, but a lot of the popular ones don't even do 'game-i-ness' at all -- just fantasy with numbers. And the more I read, I'm starting to realize that I prefer things crunchy, because the crunchier, normally the more chance of it being 'game-y'.

    The surprising thing is that the only one I've found that really, really gets 'video-game-i-ness' and 'let's-figure-out-this-encounter game-i-ness' is Amazon of Icehelms (an erotic BDSM LitRPG comedy)!

    On a separate note: I'm starting to feel that dungeon core stories (at least from what I've read in Divine Dungeon) are inherently game-y in the sense that every time someone goes into the dungeon it's a 'match', a 'fight', like sport, which might explain why I'm enjoying it so much.

    ---

    So the main purpose of this thread, I guess, is my selfish desire to make it a real concept so more people will incorporate it into their stories, and so there will eventually be more stories I enjoy. Also, since this is something I really, really like, I want to give shout-outs to stories that do this, and maybe get suggestions for new stories to read if someone discovers something that fits the 'game-y' definition.
     
  19. Windfall

    Windfall Level 18 (Magician) LitRPG Author Citizen

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    Forgot to respond to this!

    I think Fair Play Strategy is a very nice concept and a very nice way to put it. However, I think that most of the time, unlike readers of mysteries, I don't think readers of LitRPG really want to be able to figure things out before the MC does -- maybe alongside the MC, but they still want to be wowed with in-the-moment 'cleverness'. At least I do. (And you'll get complaints of "the MC is stupid" when readers actually figure things out before the MC does) So I like stories where once the MC figures it out, it feels "that makes perfect sense!" and not "they just pulled that out of nowhere!"
     
  20. ChamomileHasANovel

    ChamomileHasANovel Level 7 (Cutpurse) Beta Reader Citizen

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    Mysteries have the exact same problem and many of them land on the exact same solution: Make the mystery impossible to reasonably solve before the climax by having key pieces of evidence missing until the moment of revelation. The entire idea of the Fair Play Whodunnit is that the best mystery stories do not do this (but that mystery stories in general do it often enough for someone to feel the need to assign a specific name to ones that don't), but are still hard enough to solve that most of the audience doesn't beat the protagonist there, and the ones that do feel genuinely clever for figuring it out, because it's not obvious.

    I don't know if the LitRPG audience values the Fair Play Strategy the way the mystery audience values the Fair Play Whodunnit, but it's worth noting that a lot of mystery authors didn't (and don't) seem to think the Fair Play Whodunnit was all that important, but their names are forgotten while Agatha Christie lives on.
     
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