Tier up -or not?

Discussion in 'Debates & Discussions' started by Dragon, Jun 25, 2021.

  1. Dragon

    Dragon Level 19 (Enchanter) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Well basically it seems various monsters have a max tier which could be tied to their rank. That could very well be the case for all creatures. Assuming it is, how would balance increasing your potential vs more immediate need?
     
  2. ShoughtLoud

    ShoughtLoud Level 17 (Theurgist) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Generally I would think Tiering up when possible is the move to make for like 85% of the population who reach that point. Obviously there is something to be said for making sure you have good options for when you do, but for most; the universal bonuses (life span, stats, tps, 20% +&- damage to and from sources lower rank than you etc) are likely more valuable to them than potentially waiting additional years/ decades to grab just one more ascension option. Most will reach the level in advanced years (especially the longer lived races), and the more war like races will rush it for those same benefits as well. Depending on how hush hush ascension requirements are kept, some more lone wolf types would fall into the grey area of going for the first time, realizing what kinds of things give more options and then intentionally failing the lowest option to go grind out an extra one they think they might be close to achieving. Like if there was a deeper magic mage who had reached the telepath ascension, but also had almost reached similar stats in spirit, blood or both, they would likely be the kind to go back for the chance at an alternate one that suits them better, or potentially some amalgam version that combines multiple deep magics.


    Then there are cheaters like Richter.
     
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  3. Dragon

    Dragon Level 19 (Enchanter) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Well what about increasing your max tier by ranking up? I agree its not for everyone, but the most ambitious likely desire the option.
     
  4. darkenedstar

    darkenedstar Level 13 (Assassin) Exiles Citizen

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    Yeah the listed requirements for chaos lord are way to low. Though I figure richter would have made much harder requirements as well.

    I hope he gets something not based on chaos for his third tier but I don’t expect it.
     
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  5. ShoughtLoud

    ShoughtLoud Level 17 (Theurgist) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Do ranks go away after tiring up?/ Are they locked in or can you continue ranking the lower ranked tier afterwards?
     
  6. darkenedstar

    darkenedstar Level 13 (Assassin) Exiles Citizen

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    Sounds like they are locked. honostly I think it should be locked since you have effectively abandoned that path. Anything you have gained isn’t going away though, that would be just too fucked up.
     
  7. ShoughtLoud

    ShoughtLoud Level 17 (Theurgist) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    If that's the case then again I'm guessing it will almost always fall to circumstances.

    Someone like Richter? Easy wait until max ranked. That tier leveling system combined with any of our postulates on how the vassal situation works its a matter of months if he keeps on top of it. Even without it, he gets insane amounts of cps to buy his ranks with.

    Others? Varied but mostly a thing of convenience. If you picked a powerful Ascension and get to the half way mark after reaching the next threshold from long years of toiling, likely you'll take your next Ascension once it comes up. Might be you even undersell yourself slightly next time so you don't run into the same problem. Coming up on your age limit? Next tier starts to look much more tempting.

    Then again none of the people reaching these limits are the kind to sit around and waste themselves. They got to level ~45ish (high end maybe 60 for some races?) I doubt this is a common problem to have choosing between Ascension and continuing the ranks
     
  8. darkenedstar

    darkenedstar Level 13 (Assassin) Exiles Citizen

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    I figure richter will max chaos lord long before reach tier 3. Especially since vassals give him chaos points. I think it was 2/day but I am not sure on that.
     
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  9. ShoughtLoud

    ShoughtLoud Level 17 (Theurgist) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Depends. It's chaotic alignment based and he doubles from both his choice and his blessing from the Chaos Lords. He's gonna be doing just fine on points unless the lord /vassal upgrades are horrendously expensive
     
  10. Dragon

    Dragon Level 19 (Enchanter) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Could still be some room for ranking at the second tier, but I think it would be far more limited. Just as I think there will be a few tier up options or none if you have reached your max tier.
     
  11. PokemonThug

    PokemonThug Level 17 (Theurgist) Roleplaying Exiles Beta Reader Citizen Aspiring Writer

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    Tiering up/profession/specialization/focus.. trails is a a free get out of jail card throught Nexus domain.


    The much bigger issue with tiers is that now we are likelly getting the regen ability from the worm points. And you will say Yaghh! REGEN!! RAAAWN...

    And its fine, its way better than steel bones.. in some cases. Still what ability do we want really?? as a mage-warrior? Maybe we need a mana regen more than hp regen?

    Hp regen is super good for fighters.. but not as much as magic protection/ poison resists etc...

    You wanna kill as fast as you can, if u relly in general on regen++ u are already fucked. U need protection from elemental attacks, hp regen wont help when you are getting 1000 dmg per second from poison.

    HP regen is not bad, but Id rather take +10% mana. Or elemental prot.

    What tierx creatures bonus would you want?
    I bet the undead will provide some great boosts, Like "Vampire speed"
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2021
  12. ShoughtLoud

    ShoughtLoud Level 17 (Theurgist) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Some form of spirit/aura projection. Not something like the fear aura Nien had (to easy to become complacent when half your fights are no longer real fights like Nien did a bit) but some form of presence aura that can effect enemies and not allies or vice versa. Reduced enemy resistances, or increased ally resistances would be good.

    Otherwise for the body, I'd still say regen or life drain. Relying on them isn't great, but they are still great powers. Regen reduced damage over time, paralysis over time (Richter's personal weakness), etc and life drain (from a vampire or such) might complement his bloodline to allow healing while it's active. Alternately some form of undead stamina, which massively reduces stamina usage could be good for him

    For mind improvements I'm not sure what would be available. I don't think it'd be something as mundane as increasing a secondary Stat, so maybe the ability to use psi blasts or perform his own brain drains or something? Only info I've got is Alma's abilities :/
     
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  13. Andrew Lynas

    Andrew Lynas Level 17 (Theurgist) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    I would say for the most part that they (the Tier 2 options) are Locked, but there might be some possible exceptions to this. But I also think that Improvements to the things that granted some(/many?) of these Rank Up/Tiering options are likely to carry over too the next Tier Choices/Options. For instance at his Tier 3 Choice list he is likely to get Chaos Lord Telepath as an option, possibly High Human Chaos Lord (or similar) and possibly some type of Chaos Lord Drakonic option. But the chance for a Chaos Mist Lord maybe on the low side, but I might be wrong. And if he Learns Thought Magic then possibly Psionic Chaos Lord?
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2021
  14. Andrew Lynas

    Andrew Lynas Level 17 (Theurgist) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    If Richter gains some degree of Regeneration and Iron Bones, and finds are way to gain Enhanced Senses and some type of Minor Shape Shifting Ability to let him gain the ability to grow Claws & Fangs (maybe are very partial shift of his Draconian form or via another method), then Richter would be on the route to becoming a lesser version of Wolverine. But with Magic.
    If he can get something like ability to grow Ghoul Claws at will then be would also be able to Paralyze things but is also likely to gain at least some increased Resistance to Paralytic Poisons and possibly a slight increase in Poisons in general?

    I would also like to see Richter gain something that increases his Mental Aegis Stat and boost is Psionic and Thought Magic Potential and Increases his chance to naturally gain Mental abilities and skills. (he really needs to learn Thought Magic before he Professes as a Magic User).
    And Gaining an ability like the Abyssal Siphon (even a much weaker version) would be massively useful. It might even allow him with his Enchanting Profession to possibly boost it to gain something more similar to Flesh Enchanting?
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2021
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  15. ShoughtLoud

    ShoughtLoud Level 17 (Theurgist) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    I can see some versions being locked, like if ranking up required a specific ritual with tier 2 components on a tier 2 body/mind/soul. But the Chaos tree so far, or any points based trees for that matter, I find... Arbitrary. He uses chaos points to level it, and honestly it just seems like using chaos points to empower the upgrades he already has further. Locking out of it from that perspective seems awful "because because" of Aleron. If later ranks require more than just raw chaos points, then yeah sure lock them away forever or make them super extra if you tier up before completing them. But just points? Seems meh.
     
  16. Andrew Lynas

    Andrew Lynas Level 17 (Theurgist) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Any guess when his next Tier Up will be? As in will be have to Level his Tier Rank to a certain degree AND get to a certain Personal Level or will it just be to increase his Tier Rank?
     
  17. ShoughtLoud

    ShoughtLoud Level 17 (Theurgist) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Both, being able to just rocket man through the tiers seems extremely broken, and like you wouldn't really comprehend your 'self' if you don't have time to really explore the new tier.

    Although perhaps it's not personal level but some other metric that maybe lowers the success chance or otherwise slows tier ups, post reaching tier 2
     
  18. Dragon

    Dragon Level 19 (Enchanter) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Well he definitely has to reach max rank, which means saving up a heck of a lot of chaos points for each rank.

    That piggy bank will also have to pay for Richter's personal chaos sea expenses and those of future chaos seed vassals. Those seeds won't be okay with Richter just pocketing the majority of the points for his personal advancement.

    They'll want him to spend most of the points in the sea of chaos, on gear, skill-ups, extra lives in case they run low and other goodies that benefit every seed rather than just one person.

    Then there is the liege page. Call me naive, but i'm 100% certain that's going to be one massive, massive chaos point sink. Because of course it is.

    Bottom line, no matter how many vassals Richter gains, there will be just as many drains on his chaos points. Ranking up could take a long time if he keeps on warring and keeps on having to spend points on his chaos seed retainers to keep them combat ready.
     
  19. ShoughtLoud

    ShoughtLoud Level 17 (Theurgist) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Getting to rank 5 shouldn't be too bad though. Obviously he would want to max it out if possible, but at least boosting to rank 5 allows him to have the chance to tier up if he reaches his level cap, along with the regular bonuses of ranking up.

    Too long didn't read at bottom of post.

    While I agree that the other chaos seeds are going to want him to share the points he gets, he has a couple heavy hitters on his side of the argument for hoarding them.

    1) any other chaos lord would get 1/4 of the points he'll be receiving, if he spends half of what he gets on them that's still double what they could get from anyone else.
    2) they are signing up for a liege vassal relationship with a higher tier being, the consequences of breaking said pact being possibly worse for the vassal than the vow power struggle/ battle of wills Richter just had with the imp. Something is better than nothing, and breaking an agreement after forming it just because you see your liege getting more out of the relationship than you think is appropriate is going to end very very poorly.
    3)(more of a possibility but a likely one I think) the liege vassal relationship might actually already provide the vassals with an allowance of CPs every week, at which point they need not learn that he has extra CPs to throw around. Or at least that they'll be distributed as a reward, or from a generosity standpoint, and not as a right.
    4) he has the knowledge and info and resources they want about becoming stronger and better versions of themselves. Tier up requirements, higher costs of the sea, being able to make any spell book and or level 1 skill book (eventually), village resources. So they get a few less chaos points, the man is a meal ticket to success and prosperity if you're willing to take a few risks. Off chance he can share abilities with vassals? Keep the f**cking chaos points, limitless all day everyday.
    5)The Big One
    Ranks are f**cking broken.

    To your points of the sea of chaos and the liege page, they are likely infinite point sinks, but his ranks are a static amount. The faster he "pays" that off the less options he'll be able to spend his points on and a much higher weekly income, diverting more points to the vassals etc.
    After just checking ( @Johan) they updated /clarified book 8 a little on Kindle. He does indeed get extra vassal slots per rank up (1-->2). And gets increased points from them per chaotic alignment of the vassal (1-->3). So: more ranks= more and better payout on vassals = massively more chaos points in = more wealth to spread around. At rank 9 it'd be 17 base points per chaotic alignment, or 68 per alignment point after his doublings. That's almost a free grab from the fifth stratum per week per vassal, if his vassals only had a chaotic alignment of 1. If his recruitment can keep pace with his rank ups, he has a stupid short time span to reach rank nine, considering how much more powerful each rank actually makes him. 18 weeks to 104 weeks, depending on if he gets only +3 chaos alignment vassals or only +1 chaos alignment vassals. 18 weeks (126days) is less time than he has spent in the Land in total.

    Tldr:
    Ranks over everything else, even the whining of his underlings, unless liege page is just as broken.
     
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  20. Dragon

    Dragon Level 19 (Enchanter) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    As for copping out before rank 9, I think that would be a terrible choice. It would likely cut off many of the best evolution paths for chaos lords. It could even force him into a dead-end evolution, that will never be able to reach tier 4. Might give him a big powerboost in the present, in return for crippling his future growth. Levels just aren't that important at this point.

    I agree that maxing out the ranks with a flat point increase per rank should be real easy. But I don't think Aleron is going to make it so easy. I think he is going with a cost increase system we've seen a couple of times. Namely
    5, 10, 25, 50, 100, 250, 500, 1000, etc.


    Rank 5 would be reachable within a couple years just by sitting on his ass, but gathering enough chaos points for rank 9 would take enough effort to validate the legendary label. By the time he gets there, he will be a powerhouse worthy of getting the rarest, most powerful chaos lord tier ups.


    So what rank is Richter currently? He is rank 2, with a cost of 1000 to reach the next rank.
     
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