We're having a great discussion on skills, a fun discussion on races so I thought why not discuss another common LitRPG theme: Classes Now I've seen this done a few ways. Of course there is the standard "choose a class" at character creation. There is 'earn your class' which varies but inevitably means that the characters first levels are 'general'. 'Earn your class' is perhaps too broad a category. OOOOOOHHHHH random rant: Character A never shows any interest in a skill/power/mechanic, has no aptitude for said skill/power/mechanic, but then through a quick series of 'fortunate events' the character is now a master and has earned the class/title/profession. RAWR Seriously? Are you kidding me right now? No, no no. If your character is going to be an enchanter then SHOW us their interest in magic and in how it binds to items or how it interacts or whatever. Don't just get all "Because the author said so" on us. with my rant out of the way, I will say I prefer to read story's where the characters earn their class/profession/mechanic. As a reader it shows us what it means to be that class, and what it takes to become one. It's also interesting if there are 'nonstandard' classes. You know? More then the sword and board fighter, or the tomb and page mage, the stabby and...crabby rogue? Okay so the rhyming scheme doesn't work however you get the idea. what are your favorite classes? do you prefer a different mechanic that fills that role? do you really dislike when an author goes all 'god mode' with his MC? sorry. that last one just snuck out.
I share your ranting. I hate when it's just "oh, oopsie, I'm just so awesome I managed to unlock this by total accident and am now super hardcore awesome at it!" when it comes to classes and professions. I don't mind if an MC accidentally unlocks something, but it has to be done skillfully or it just feels like a Mary Sue move or a Deus ex Machina. That said, my personal preference (although I don't see it much) is a combination of choosing and discovery for classes. What I really like seeing is a class picked and then the MC learning a specialization through trial and advancement. Like...they can start as a fighter and end up as a Knight/Paladin through the "right" actions and behavior. I like that sort of thing a lot. One of my other rants is MCs randomly "cross classing" with NO downside and always ending up much more powerful because of it, even compared to "specialized" members of the class. Cross-classing is supposed to give flexibility but lack the power of a "pure" class. So I kind of eye-roll when an MC "skyrims" it up and is the super-healing, fire-ball-throwing, super-sneaky, heavy-armor-wearing fighter/mage/rogue/werewolf/super-whatever by chapter 5.
Thank you for the share. I don't see it all the time but often enough. In some fairly popular novels too. I just...I dislike it very much. I do like the method you mentioned as well. I like the idea of personalization if that makes sense. They earn that Knighthood and it means something. Giving the character different specialization options. I can't think of the name ....oh yes i can, Tao Wongs Apocalypse series. His classes have a base, advanced...and I forget where it goes from there but I think there are two are three more levels. It's not specifically linear either. Just because you managed to get into an advanced class doesn't mean you will be able to meet the qualifications for it's upgrade! Okay, well. As to Skyrim. I love it. I end up being a conjurer (because I have to summon my awesome bow) sneaky (Illusion used enough to get the 'silent casting' perk) Nightingale (because I love the armor). Oh and one handed blades. The rest is fluff. However when thinking about that in terms of LitRPG I think it would depend on the premise of the world. If it's just a VRMMO then there is no real benefit to being a jack of all trades/master of none. So in that aspect I think it goes back to our rant on an author godmoding. However in the "stuck in" stories, or the "reality is now augmented" stories there is an argument that having access and proficiency in a broad range of skills/powers is benefitial. Yes you may never reach the mmo abilities of a fighter, but because you can heal yourself you are more likely to survive. I will also say in games where I 'choose' a class. I almost invariably choose a magic one. I love magic.
I'm a big fan of systems that allow for flexibility. Years ago, I played a MMORPG named Asheron's Call. While they developers eventually created starting archetypes players could select, you always had the option of creating your character from scratch - selecting your own skills to train and specialize in. It made for some interesting combinations, and is, along with Fantasy Flight Games' Genesys RPG, the inspiration for a lot of the game mechanics in my current story. For a system like mine, this is something I will have to address. For instance, while my "holy assassin" may be able to get his combat and stealth skills as high as a rogue's, he's likely to fall short when it comes to other roguish traits, like deception and picking pockets. There has to be some give and take in an open system, or (you're right), the character can become overpowered.
I have a hard time wrapping my head around class based LitRPGs because I associate LitRPG more with the style of play you'd find in table top gaming rather than MMOs since it's completely immersive. My favorite TT games don't use classes. In the way I like my LitRPGs (and gaming in general), you get points and you get skills. How you spend those points defines your capabilities and where you fit in a group. This approach just feels more realistic to me, and I like that flavor of realism in my gaming. For example, say we are in a world based on WoW and Joe Priest marvels at how useful the rogue is at picking locks, and wants to learn. Well too frickin' bad because if you pray well enough to have your prayers answered, you can never learn these non-supernatural skills. Same goes for weapon types and armor. "Hey Annie Mage. I bought you a really nice leather jacket for your birthday!" "Are you trying to make me cry asshole?" I differ from TTRPGs when I write LitRPGs (or at least my current one) in that all skills are zeroed out at character creation. The only way to get them is by practicing what you want to get good at in game (or finding a drop that gives +whatever to a skill... but relying on those will always make someone look like an amateur compared to someone that has actually leveled the skill). The only things people spend points on are attributes (which are combined with skill ratings to get the results), and special powers/spells/abilities.
I like the idea of earning classes. It was always more fun for me in tabletop campaigns to essentially be awarded a dual-spec option because of what the character had actually done, and not just because of handwavey game rules and such. Buuuut on the flip-side, a starting class is appealing to me. It sets expectations and rules for the world and the lens through which the reader views that world. If handled well, it provides another level of narrative depth because you have a defined set of strengths and weaknesses the character can employ to work through or succumb to the conflicts set before them. I also really dig stories where the MC is trying to figure out a class that's out of their comfort zone, but that may be the masochist in me. I'm personally writing a class system that's flexible. Classes are basically stat/skill packages, and you can deviate from them at any time. During character creation, the game will suggest a class based on your stat spread, but you're not locked into that and can develop your stats and skills as you like in the future.
I am also a fan of flexibility, though it works better in some systems than others. As to the 'assassin' I've never really considered the fact that it would be 'less powered' than the standard rogue, but your right; The assassin would have to go through a very different training regime than the rogue, giving them similar but different skill sets.
That made me giggle a bit on the inside. I'm sure my grin was a bit scary. I would say that, if you are in a WoW LitRPG adventure, you wouldn't expect to be able to get those cross class skills. However you do point out a flaw in a strict "class" system that has no skill flexibility.
There is absolutely something to be said for "DM power". Rewarding a player due to their playstyle is a great idea. plus I've always loved the idea of gestalt classing. As an author you, of course, have that same "DM power". I think the important bit would be to make sure that you show the 'playstyle' that is being rewarded. To give a better example of my rant would be this: Mr. Mage loves throwing fireballs and does so often. Then he's suddenly great at stealth, though he'd never tried being stealthy before the "DM power" was unleashed.
Personally I think it would depend on how you do it. Does your character use the skills? If it's a strict class system did they go to a trainer to learn these new skills? When writing there are some hurdles that you need to [go] over that aren't necessary when playing a game (table top or otherwise). I think my main caveat is the general writers rule: Show don't tell. In this respect giving your mage character rogue skills or class skills doesn't make sense unless you've shown your readers that the character wants to be stealthier, or has a companion or mentor that points out the need. Does that make sense? *edit because I forgot a word!*
I'm not knocking playing Skyrim or enjoying it at all! I did a post about it a while ago. The thing about the super-powerful, can-do-all-the-things character is that it's super fun to play, but far less fun to read. Reading about an incredibly OP MC that isn't even vaguely challenged is...dull. At least to me. There's no connection, no suspense, no worry things might not work out for them. You know that nothing can touch them so even if it's well-written, there's zero emotional connection. However, playing one can be really awesome because it's a fun escape from the irritations and troubles of real life. It's nice to be able to just breeze through any enemy or concern and get the rewards. It's definitely relaxing and fun to do in terms of actually playing the game yourself! Now that said, I don't have a problem with jack-of-all-trades MCs. I just find it annoying for them to have...say 2 levels in fighter, 2 levels in rogue, and 2 levels in mage...but can super easily beat up a level 25 "pure" mage that has access to incredibly powerful spells, etc. on the premise of "Oh, he's part fighter so he's TOUGH". Okay, tough shouldn't mean much if that mage is throwing a fireball at you the size of a truck! That said, being a cross-class for survival reasons is just fine and logical and a good plan. It just is rarely written that way. It's always "oh, the MC is so damn smart, they came up with the PERFECT combo of this and that to make them INVINCIBLE even at lower levels against EVERYTHING...because they're AWESOME." At least point, it's back to my previous grumble. It's just plain boring for me to read and I have zero connection with the MC because I know they're just going to win, win, win due to plot armor and being the author's baby.
Exactly. I'm not saying "There should never be cross classes!". I just mean that a cross-classed character shouldn't have all the advantages and be a match (or better) than the "pure" class. Like you said with the rogues. A cross-class rogue being able to sneak and hide, but lacking the same level of training for pickpocketing and backstabbing makes sense to me. And it basically doesn't make them "better" than a higher level rogue, but still gives them the skills needed for what they're doing. I mean honestly if cross-classing gives these super incredible bonuses and makes them better than any "pure" class...why would anyone in that setting be anything but a cross-class of everything they can get their hot little hands on? It makes zero sense.
I see what your saying. I didn't think of this until I was reading your post but by giving limitations to the character it forces you as the author to think creatively to get your character out of that situation. In the above situation, the character wouldn't beat the mage unless "godmode" is engaged in some form. However the character could survive the situation because of their varied 'build' (reflexes to get out of the way the fireball, some constitution to live through what damage they do take, and a simple cantrip to make them walk silently while they sneak away). SO I suppose I feel like your saying that an OverPowered MC is the sign of a lazy author. SO here is my question to you. How would you use a highpowered mc? It seems somewhat common to have access to any skills at the very least. SO a skillfull mage/fighter/rogue that could be arguably overpowered. ????
I actually totally agree. I like the idea of a class to open some options, but the idea of the LitRPG having some logical choices being open to anyone. Like maybe not everyone in that world can just randomly learn magic, but there's zero reason someone can't learn lockpicking or sneaking or something similar with practice and effort. I could see it being slightly more difficult and not quite as effective as, say, a rogue that's trained for years, but there's no reason a mage couldn't learn to do at least the basics, right? On the subject of armor, I view it more as a matter of training to be used to the weight and balance. So a mage could be wearing a full suit of armor, but they'd probably be clunking around, feeling heavy and awkward because they haven't trained to wear it. It would be like me throwing on a full set of swat gear at random. I could no doubt walk around and stuff, but I probably would feel confined and likely not be used to looking through the helmet, etc. It would take some time and practice for me to feel comfortable in it. A combo of class and flexibility is what I'm working on myself as well. I want the world to feel "customizable" but still have a game feel. And most MMOs have you pick a class, plus as you said having to learn those skills and how to utilize them properly is an interesting challenge. That discovery, practice, and triumphant from learning that spell or figuring out that sword move or whatever is something I really like in a book. It makes me feel connected to the MC because when I figure out something new, I get the same feeling. So it appeals to me.
I honestly don't mind them at all as long as there's 1) a slow power gain and 2) some limitations that tell me why everyone in the world isn't cross-classing if it's giving the MC all these bonuses. I feel like cross-classing gives utility, but at the price of specialization. It's a bit like being a general practice doctor. They have enough knowledge to deal with most things and they can figure out a lot of problems, but if their patient has, for example, a stomach problem, they call in a specialist. They're a "jack of all trades" but for the really tough jobs, those specialists are going to be far more successful. That's how I think cross-classes should be: good for most things, if not exceptional, but for harder stuff, they can't outdo a 'professional' whose worked for years to be really good at that particular skill set.
Now, a cross-classed jack-of-all-trades betting a "specialist" due to brains and skill? That's just fine by me. However, 95% of the time, it's normally just written as "they're just so COOL, no one can beat them because only they discovered that cross-classing makes you SUPER POWERFUL". I should have clarified that I mean cross-class going head-to-head in pure "class abilities" against a specialist should always come up with the specialist being "better" in terms of abilities (assuming they're both level 5s or whatever, etc.). I have no problem with a clever MC beating someone who is stronger than they are as long as I feel like they really are using their brains, as opposed to say pulling crap out of their butt ('Oh, I just remembered I have this super powerful scroll that summons a demon to eat my enemies!') or their "clever tactic" is really...dumb, like they beat the skilled fighter by ducking or some nonsense that logically any soldier trained in combat would know to watch out for, etc. Now, there is some wiggle room as the enemy might be dumb as a sack of hammers so I'm just using generalizations, of course. But yes, I feel like a very quickly OP MC is the sign of a lazy author's "darling" who they want to always win, always be awesome, always be loved, and always get the arm-candy. It feels a bit too self-wanking to me and I find that dull. I don't even enjoy fanfictions that have that sort of MC in it because it's just boring to me personally. Now I don't mean an MC can't be powerful. Of course they can be. They just have to have limits, vulnerabilities, and weaknesses that keep them from just godmoding through the book as an untouchable superhero that gains instant love from everyone except the bad guys. I think the trick is not to make the cross-class too powerful and to do a slow power gain for one. It's boring if they instantly can just defeat everything without any real effort from chapter 3. Don't give the MC too much too soon because that results in them just feeling like a Mary/Gary Sue. The other things, for me, involve giving them actually challenging enemies so they have to be smart enough to use those abilities properly and to their advantage. Have the MC go "Okay, I can't out-spell this evil mage because I don't know near as much magic as him, but he's arrogant. I can be smarter than him so how about I do xyz to distract him and give myself the advantage!" or something like that. For me, skill doesn't always equal lots of abilities. It's more about using what you have in the most clever way possible. Maybe your cross-classed mage/warrior/rogue only knows cantrips, but if he knows how to use those cantrips extremely well than he's got an advantage. Most mages probably just view those as baby spells and not worth the mana, right? Well, if he squeezes every bit of usefulness he can and thinks of really smart ways to use his limited spells than he's skillful AND powerful, just in a different way. He lacks the "pure power" of the Mage, but he's powerful because he uses what he's got in intelligent ways. Now that kind of stuff I actually love. I love being surprised when the MC does something smart and going "Ohhhh, now that was really clever! I didn't see that coming!".
I think part of the trick is making sure that they show characters who are 'specialized' so the reader can see those strengths and weaknesses in relation to the mc. If the author doesn't give the reader reference, than they (the reader) will pull from their own experience. I think it safe to say that there are quite a lot of min/max character builders that get away with it b/c the game/system isn't built to give any repercussions. I suppose though that having "cross class" skills to help a character survive the world is different than a true cross class. Although in games where there is no 'class' it's easy to build a 'cross class' type character. I've read a lot in LitRPG and have found that I do enjoy the 'class' first method. I think they only way I recall of the 'earning' your class (outside of 'the land' which was my rant) was the character having a 'general' class so they could see how they wanted to use their skills before they began to get classes and specialize.
I agree. It's important to show both the multiclassed and the specialist so the reader can see the differences. Otherwise, you're right. They just have to figure it out from their own experiences; which isn't bad. But it might not end up being the conclusion the writer was hoping for. And that's definitely true. It depends on the game system the story is using. I rather wish there were more books with classes that actually mattered. Most seem to default to "oh, there's no class, everyone can just do everything!", which I can understand but honestly kind of regard skeptically. If it's a commercially made video game, it's going to likely have classes, limits, etc. I know a few don't, but most of the popular and successful ones do. There's flexibility within the classes for builds, but classes exist. So it always confuses me and feels a bit lazy when a game just has...no classes at all? Not even ones you can discover?
