Vassalage in practice

Discussion in 'Debates & Discussions' started by Johan, Mar 8, 2020.

  1. Captain BlackJack

    Captain BlackJack Level 9 (Burgler) Exiles Citizen

    48%
    Messages:
    280
    Likes:
    52
    xp:
    224
    LitCoin:
    561,867
    Zorkmid:
    32
    If Ricther builds a town hall of some type (preferably a goblin hold) in each vassalage township would he gain an increase in his diplomatic points and settlement points? I would think that Ricther being master of said vassals would get a self ordained amount of points similar to taxation. Then those points could be used for other locations greater needs. Such as a barracks which could train local troops and act as a fallback position.
     
  2. Johan

    Johan Level 16 (Paladin) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

    18%
    Messages:
    1,409
    Likes:
    499
    xp:
    718
    LitCoin:
    2,818,912
    Zorkmid:
    174
    Not bad. As a vassal town he wouldn't need any embassy. It would be perfect if he could build a lvl 3 town hall in another town, even if they can't. Then they can obtain higher level buildings if their they would otherwise not be able to.

    For all I know a level three kender town hall is what Richtær already saw. Not overly impressive.
     
  3. Captain BlackJack

    Captain BlackJack Level 9 (Burgler) Exiles Citizen

    48%
    Messages:
    280
    Likes:
    52
    xp:
    224
    LitCoin:
    561,867
    Zorkmid:
    32
    What makes you think the Kinder already have a town hall?

    I thought Ricther met the elders in a tavern.

    Ricther needs the Kinder settlement to gain Settlement points and Diplomacy points. A Kinder town hall should help work toward that goal. They wouldn’t Necessarily need their own embassy but they could have their own consulates office. Each racial vassalage should be represented by their own consulate operating through the guidance of the Mist Village leadership and the mist village Embassy. That way every MV embassy would represent each vassalage with their own consulate.

    That could work very well if Ricther unites the kingless Dwarvin tribes. With those tribes united under the mist village a dwarvin consulate could be used in each embassy. That way each dwarvin kingdom would get a mist village and a dwarvin vassal consulate.
     
  4. Dragon

    Dragon Level 15 (Guardian) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

    48%
    Messages:
    1,107
    Likes:
    525
    xp:
    648
    LitCoin:
    1,635,849
    Zorkmid:
    99
    Settlement points are gained from places of power.
    Diplopoints are chained to relationships with particular settlements, its basically a measure of what they owe/ will do without too much haggling. Its not useable with other settlements - it wouldn't make sense for example that you can call Yves (at best a neutral party) to war because you saved up tens of thousands of points with the HT.

    Embassies are used with foreign powers, the kindir are a tiny, tiny vassal state. I think a representative in Richter's court to relay policy changes and protect the interests of the kindir kingdom would be more than enough for now. Same would serve for other minor powers, they simply won't be important enough to have more than that in the future. Is that what you mean by a consulate?

    Should the kindir kingdom get expanded, as in Richter adding more kindir villages to the kindir king's burden (he really shouldn't have pulled all that shit XD) or the dwarves unify they might have need of a full embassy (same for the kobolds). At the moment the only one who qualifies for an embassy in the mist village is the HT.
     
  5. Captain BlackJack

    Captain BlackJack Level 9 (Burgler) Exiles Citizen

    48%
    Messages:
    280
    Likes:
    52
    xp:
    224
    LitCoin:
    561,867
    Zorkmid:
    32
    Well



    Hello



    Drag!



    Glad you could make it to the conversation. I might have done a poor job of my explanation but as I said the vassalage races should have consulate offices in the Mist Village Embassy’s.
    They would all work under the MVs direction not independently. That would allow each race a MV consulate to help advocate for things to their own people. That is to those nations that are not part of the Mist Village. Or I suppose you could have an embassy full of Goblins working for the Mist Village at their dwarvin embassy. I personally just think it would be better to have a dwarvin vassal working as a consulate in my embassy that lay in the dwarvin lands.

    Hey we could probably have a kinder working as a ambassador in the human lands as well. Considering how much the humans like kinder that should go over really well.


    So you don’t think a death ley line runs under the Kinder Sepulcher? It might not have a nexus of ley lines but I would still consider any settlement on a ley line a pop. That is if it is receiving power from it. Then it should be considered a place of power.
     
  6. Hastur

    Hastur Level 7 (Cutpurse) Exiles Citizen

    78%
    Messages:
    131
    Likes:
    84
    xp:
    139
    LitCoin:
    693,669
    Zorkmid:
    42
    When Singh was giving orders to Nein he mentioned that "I will send you. I cannot guarantee where you will go, but I have been able to sense a concentration of Death magic." Predator loc 20129 My guess is an Eldritch Lich with an exile as a patron could detect a death ley line if there was one.

    Whatever the name for embassy in the land is I think its a good idea. Richter did order Flint to the MV in a week to go over the vassalage.
     
    Captain BlackJack likes this.
  7. Waterhobit

    Waterhobit Level 9 (Burgler) Citizen

    52%
    Messages:
    247
    Likes:
    169
    xp:
    226
    LitCoin:
    856,512
    Zorkmid:
    114
    I don't think there is a death ley line there. I think there can be concentrations of death magic in an area without there being a death ley line. Looking back, Sing says he can sense a concentration of Death magic. I think if it had been a ley line he would have known.
     
  8. Dragon

    Dragon Level 15 (Guardian) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

    48%
    Messages:
    1,107
    Likes:
    525
    xp:
    648
    LitCoin:
    1,635,849
    Zorkmid:
    99
    It certainly could be a core building. It could be on a death ley line. But it doesn't have to be and nothing in the text implies that the palace is anything less than the core of the old kindir kingdom. We know the ancient mist empire had access to knowledge and magic far in advance of what is currently available. The tier 3 kindir schematic is just one example of that, their creation of specialized Runes unmatched in the peninsula another (as far as we know even Yves only has knowledge of a few general runes used on the walls of the royal palace).

    Perhaps, the palace is set up to absorb ambient mana and transform it into summoning points? That would allow it to scale nicely with the growing power of the mist kingdom.

    As for it being a place of power, those are formed where two leylines cross, not where someone taps into one. That's another thing we have yet to see, though I agree its going to happen and could well be the case here.
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2020
  9. Johan

    Johan Level 16 (Paladin) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

    18%
    Messages:
    1,409
    Likes:
    499
    xp:
    718
    LitCoin:
    2,818,912
    Zorkmid:
    174
    Well the I don't know if they do but the paragraph seems to indicate a more substantial building than the others.
    "They finished their walk a few minutes later in front of a larger hill. It had the only two-story house that Richter had seen so far. Cut into the front of the hill was a series of steps." Book 7
    but like I said if it is a town hall it is not very impressive. Maybe if there isn't one, have the liege Lord build one.
     
    Captain BlackJack and Dragon like this.
  10. Dragon

    Dragon Level 15 (Guardian) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

    48%
    Messages:
    1,107
    Likes:
    525
    xp:
    648
    LitCoin:
    1,635,849
    Zorkmid:
    99
    The kindir can build their own townhall :)

    Might send a few dwarves over to keep them headed in the right direction though. And from stealing nails, hammers and saws from the workplace, get bored and throw them away. Hmm, maybe Richter should build it.
     
    Johan likes this.
  11. Captain BlackJack

    Captain BlackJack Level 9 (Burgler) Exiles Citizen

    48%
    Messages:
    280
    Likes:
    52
    xp:
    224
    LitCoin:
    561,867
    Zorkmid:
    32
    What was it that Singh had said? There are place of power I have long forgotten?
     
  12. Captain BlackJack

    Captain BlackJack Level 9 (Burgler) Exiles Citizen

    48%
    Messages:
    280
    Likes:
    52
    xp:
    224
    LitCoin:
    561,867
    Zorkmid:
    32
    Vassals are restricted as to what they can do with their Lords lands and properties. Normally vassals are granted very specific rights to lands and properties. For instance they could be given rights to farm land but if they cut a tree down they might be jailed for cutting the lords tree. As a vassalage Ricther would have to either grant them permission or he would need to order them to construct it.

    In my experience people relate better with similar people. That’s why I believe Ricther should have an ambassador from each of his racial vassalages working as consulates in his embassies. That in hand with him building town halls for of the vassalages should help the overall situation. That way each vassalage could help him build Diplomacy points. I also Think Ricther should have the power to delegate the use of any Settlement Points or receive a percentage of those SP’s to be used for the greater good.
     
  13. Dragon

    Dragon Level 15 (Guardian) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

    48%
    Messages:
    1,107
    Likes:
    525
    xp:
    648
    LitCoin:
    1,635,849
    Zorkmid:
    99
    The kindir are a vassal state, which is different from a vassalized noble. They could be blocked from doing much of anything or they may be paying lip service to Richter's rule at the moment. Not necesarily because they have cheated him, but because there is no agreement on the specifics off what vassalage entails beyond the most basic framework. Sure they owe him vassalage and are owed certain things in return, but what does that mean? Every situation is different. Is the kindir king to be ruler of all the kindir that join in the future? What about kindir from villages outside the mist realm visiting?

    What about taxation, the levies, what economic development support if any are the kindir owed? Will they have a special legal status given their inability to not steal anything that catches their interest? Might there be areas, such as stores, treasuries, workshops with dangerous materials, storage areas, etc. that kindir are not allowed to enter on account of them being likely to blow half the kingdom to kingdom come by accident?
     
  14. Johan

    Johan Level 16 (Paladin) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

    18%
    Messages:
    1,409
    Likes:
    499
    xp:
    718
    LitCoin:
    2,818,912
    Zorkmid:
    174
    I'm kinda surprised kinder don't have some innate immunity to taxation. Just another thing to stick into Richtær's craw.
     
  15. Dragon

    Dragon Level 15 (Guardian) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

    48%
    Messages:
    1,107
    Likes:
    525
    xp:
    648
    LitCoin:
    1,635,849
    Zorkmid:
    99
    They do have innate immunity to taxation as they do not truly understand the concept of money nor do they view it as that important. Tribute in the form of goods is likely an efficient way to tax them though, asking that they give a certain amount of herbs each day should work out quite well.

    Another way would be for them to contribute their extensive evergrowing knowledge of the world. Richter already found several sets of ruins, a few lairs and other places of great risk/reward within his territory. The kindir can lead him to many more, allowing Richter to deal with future danger and earn some more treasure.

    They could also grant him introductions to other tribes, the kindir would know the approximate locations of every tribe far beyond the borders of the mist.

    Richter is lucky that they inserted themselves on his team.
     
  16. Captain BlackJack

    Captain BlackJack Level 9 (Burgler) Exiles Citizen

    48%
    Messages:
    280
    Likes:
    52
    xp:
    224
    LitCoin:
    561,867
    Zorkmid:
    32
    Inserted themselves?

    I think they have been living on Ricthers lands.
    They knew the recipe for they eye ointment because they had been living in the Mist Villages Land’s. They also recognized Ricther as Lord of the Mist. Anything they gather, catch, kill, or harvest comes from Ricthers lands. Aren’t the percentage of those thing that are given to Ricther banalities? That is the fee paid for their use. Taxation is different than that.

    I’m not so sure that a loyal vassal wouldn’t be bound to tell their feudal lord of the local dangers, areas, and the going on’s of surrounding countries.

    In feudal worlds introductions were done out of politeness and perhaps for favor. I’m not sure seeing how many look upon the Kinder in the Land if you would want them introducing you.
     
  17. Dragon

    Dragon Level 15 (Guardian) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

    48%
    Messages:
    1,107
    Likes:
    525
    xp:
    648
    LitCoin:
    1,635,849
    Zorkmid:
    99
    Richter has no claim on the land apart from the pop and has made no additional claims known. The kindir meanwhile have a claim going back tens of thousands of years of uninterrupted inhabitance. They definitely have the stronger claim to the lands they still inhabit and control. One Richter acknowledged when he granted them the status of a vassal state and ceded defacto control of the kindir palace to them in return for half the skeletons summoned.

    The ruler of a vassal state is not a landed noble, they are the ruler of their own country with their own territories. The kindir realm (a grand word for a semiindependent hamlet :) ) owes tribute to Richter, not a part of what they hunt and gather on their own lands. But as they are a small woodland tribes consisting of extended families they are unlikely to have much use for coin, so Richter will have to take what payment he can get. Most likely that will be in the form of natural resources as well as items the kindir have "acquired" (likely from the mist village, defeating the purpose of tribute XD). That could change if the kindir grow numerous or start trading with the mist village, but for now I just doubt they have sufficient coin to pay a meaningful amount to Richter.

    A vassal is obliged to tell his lord about local dangers if asked to provide that information. What I wanted from the kindir is their extensive knowledge of the forest of Nadria and beyond. I'd want every kindir to narrate their experiences to scribes, who will be responsible for siftening through all the nonsense and gather the relevant information about other parts of the land. That goes beyond what a vassal is obliged to provide.

    The kindir should be more than able to provide initial introductions. Building a relationship beyond that is the job of Richter and Randy- mostly Randy.

    On a sidenote.
    The kindir are generally considered pesky, thieving childmen, a bother to all but a threat to none. How other races respond to them says a lot about them. A human, dwarf or elf is likely to give them a good beating and run them out of town. A crueler race such as goblins, druegar, Ra'zac, drow, gnolls, etc. will kill them for the crime of being a nuisance.

    I'd use the kindir as canaries to get a good read on local leaders as well as various races.
     
    Andrew Lynas likes this.
  18. Captain BlackJack

    Captain BlackJack Level 9 (Burgler) Exiles Citizen

    48%
    Messages:
    280
    Likes:
    52
    xp:
    224
    LitCoin:
    561,867
    Zorkmid:
    32
    So are you telling me that the lands covered by the mist don’t belong to Ricther? Who was the Kinder King in the Sepulcher sworn to serve? Talking about thousands of years. Yes the Kinder have been living there for a very long time. They also know to whom the land the live on belongs. The Lord of the Mist is no doubt the lord of all the lands the mist covers. Are you claiming the land that the mist covers can have multiple masters? What was the notice Ricther received about the Licth when Ricther found the Decamer knight in his territory?

    I would need to go back to see what was said about people living around Ricther in the Mist.

    I also need some verification on the palace you mentioned. Do you have a quote that references the kinder of having their own palace. I know the king sat on a thrown guarding the Sepulcher but who was he guarding it for? The Kinder King had loyally sat on that thrown guarding that place for a long time. Who was it that allowed him to move on to the next realm? Why did he need that person to give him permission to retire from his duty guarding the place.

    A kinder is seen as harmless??
    Ricther didn’t seem to think so. That acorn really did a trick on him. What had he said if that acorn would have been metal? An elf child could beat up a kinder? I’m not so sure about that. Shine-catcher sure gave the a run for their money. What was said about the Kinder that fought with the bugbears that were eventually captured? For such a small people they sounded more capable then sprites to defend themselves.
     
    2tymes likes this.
  19. Dragon

    Dragon Level 15 (Guardian) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

    48%
    Messages:
    1,107
    Likes:
    525
    xp:
    648
    LitCoin:
    1,635,849
    Zorkmid:
    99
    Yes I am telling you that the lands covered by the mist do not necessarily belong to Richter any more than they do other factions with a claim, that kind of thing depends mostly on who controls them. Richter's claim originates from being Master of the POP, hence he gets acknowledged by it as Lord Mist. That's why he is warned about threats to the area. He does not however, control the mist lands by any stretch of the imagination. Entire unknown tribes live within them, acknowledging no rule but their own.

    Richter cannot claim to be descended from the mist lords of old either, his is a new faction grown from scavenging the remnants of the old which means none of the remnants of the mist empire - if any other still exist rather than the other minors having arrived later on - are obligated towards him. In truth, they could make a strong case that he is an usurper with no right to the position of Lord Mist, but as there is none of the old ruling bloodline known, it does not matter either way. The kindir king acknowledged lord mist as his overlord, but that was an old loyalty from before the fall. The living kindir did not acknowledge the ancient bond, instead they forged a new bond with Richter and the new incarnation of the mist empire.

    The land they live on belongs to the kindir, Richter acknowledged that when he granted them a vassal state. That does not mean it isn't part of the mist empire, but it isn't part of the royal lands, hence Richter is owed tribute or taxes but he does not have control of what the kindir do on their tribal territory, beyond enforcing empire wide laws that at this point do not exist (there is no codex of law. It'll be fun to see what happens when Richter fails to have one ready at the end of the deadline).


    Richter will most likely acknowledge the rights of future tribes found within the mistlands. As they expand with each levelupintegrating new tribes and new lands will be an ongoing proces, with the only alternative being an offensive war to clear them out.

    On a sidenote, I think there will be other ways to expand the mist, for example a bonus that depends on the strength of the bond between the Master and the land. The 10 miles per levelup would be too restrictive once the mist empire really gets rolling.
     
  20. Dragon

    Dragon Level 15 (Guardian) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

    48%
    Messages:
    1,107
    Likes:
    525
    xp:
    648
    LitCoin:
    1,635,849
    Zorkmid:
    99
    Oh right you are.

    Instead they had a hall, which is a nice touch. It makes sense that a smaller kingdom such as theirs wouldn't be able to maintain an entire palace after the fall of the mist empire. Still, i'm thinking the sepulcher is definitely an old kindir seat of power, whatever you choose to call it. It is the place their ancient kings presumably held court (in the great hall where Richter fought the ghast).

    As I said, the kindir king was loyal to the mist emperors of old. As there is no connection between them beyond both holding the pop (a strong claim but still) his loyalty to the mist lord does not mean the other kindir are obliged towards Richter. His acknowledgement of Richter did not seem that important to the kindir. Who knows, we may learn it made all the difference, but at this point it seems unlikely.

    On a sidenote
    This means that Royal Halls are a thing. Richter should definitely build one.
     




Share This Page