What's a good definition of LitRPG?

Discussion in 'All Things LitRPG' started by Conor Kostick, May 17, 2017.

  1. Conor Kostick

    Conor Kostick Level 12 (Rogue) LitRPG Author Beta Reader Citizen

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    Is anyone here involved in the LitRPG Facebook group? I ask because they have such a narrow definition of LitRPG that they refused to let me mention Epic on their promotion days. Here's the thread:

    Me: Hi Bobby. Can you please give me the thumbs up to post about Epic in LitRPG tomorrow? Thanks. https://www.amazon.com/Epic-Avatar-Chronicles-Conor-Kostick-ebook/dp/0142411590/
    bobby bjurstrom: Need a few screenshots to show litrpgness. Shows it is in a game or game like world. Second is progression such as skills and/or levels.
    Me: OK. Meanwhile, if you click the link you'll see the premise of the book is everyone plays a fantasty MMORPG.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Me: That good?
    bobby bjurstrom: Anything for leveling or skill levels?
    Me: Hmm. Not on the Amazon preview. They don't level in class, but they do in skills.

    [​IMG]
    bobby bjurstrom: So do skills level? Like sing level one upgrades to sing two? Or beginner to novice to advanced?
    Me: Yes, but there isn't a lot of description of it in the book. The group kill a red dragon and with the loot buy skill increases. But that scene isn't in the preview.
    Me: The next issue of SciFan magazine is a LitRPG special and a story set in the world of Epic has been selected for that: https://www.amazon.com/SciFanTM-Magazine-Issue-Science-Editorial-ebook/dp/B073513GPT/
    bobby bjurstrom: Sounds good to me. Technically we require screenshots of these but I will give a pass
    Me: Thanks Bobby.
    bobby bjurstrom: The deal is for promo it's once a week. You have to mention every time mod approved and by who so it won't get deleted.
    Me: Right. Tuesdays and Fridays. So I'll mention it tomorrow.
    bobby bjurstrom: Last part is optional we have a couple of buttons that you can post in your book and/or author page and hyperlink it to the Facebook group. The theory is if authors drive fans to the group it will help out all authors. The second is it gives fans a place to discover new books and have some fun with others that share the same interests.
    Me: OK. The book is mainstream, Penguin, so I can't put the link there but glad to do so on my author page.
    Me: Thanks again!
    bobby bjurstrom: No prob. Good luck with the sales
    bobby bjurstrom: Hey sorry to back out but i need to have a screenshot for progression of skills. Do you have a copy of the ebook you can get a screenshot from?
    bobby bjurstrom: The mod group says can't bend the rules on getting proof of the two requirements
    bobby bjurstrom: If you can't provide screenshots we will have to deny the post.

    Me:
    [​IMG]
    Me: And this one explains that you hear a DING when you level up.
    [​IMG]
    bobby bjurstrom: Unfortunately the consensus is it doesn't quite show progression to the level we are looking for. It seems we will be denying the promo as of now.
     
  2. Matthew James

    Matthew James Blind Beholder Beta Reader Citizen

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    That was a perverse like to give Conor for this post... but did they just seriously turn down an actually English Language LitRPG book from a reputable publisher? With a last name like Bjurstrom I'm beginning to see red sympathizers everywhere... do they only want English readers getting pimped Russian translated stories from pubs while everyone else goes independent? There is nothing wrong with self publishing, but holy crap is that insular if some of the unreadable stuff from Japanese portalworld webnovels is LitRPG to them, and those examples aren't.

    If you feel strongly about it I'd say offer to send them copies so they can review for themselves, and force them to disclose that no actual review took place if they take a firm stance without reading your book. If they're familiar with your work and just want the stuff you've described in your samples like "You became a lot harder to kill, and are more able to withstand wounds." but in a stupid floating text box that no one was doing in 2008... be polite and tell them you'll ask your publisher if they'd be interested in a reprint ebook just for their facebook community. If the answer comes back no then that is just a double indictment of their standards. Of course I have no idea what an actual writer / publisher relationship is like or if that is even possible, but it shouldn't even have to be done for the sake of the genre as a whole...

    I'd say the date of your publishing should work in your favor if nothing else. Legendary Moonlight Sculptor started in 2007, Sword Art Online came out in 2009, find out when the Russian's got started and when Aleron did, and use the senior discount to ask them how their standard for English/American LitRPG that predated their group can be compared to todays when no one except those fluent in Korean and Japanese were buying the same material. If nothing else it should be left up to their readers. But I'm just a humble forum warrior, what do I know. :p

    edit: floating text boxes aren't actually stupid and some of my best friends have been floating text, but requiring it is damn stupid. Especially given the circumstances surrounding its release... like YA crossover appeal and predating their groups standard. Penalized for striking out first... I'm obviously too American to be impartial on this topic.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2017
  3. Conor Kostick

    Conor Kostick Level 12 (Rogue) LitRPG Author Beta Reader Citizen

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    Awesome post Matthew. I feel the solidarity!
     
  4. Paul Bellow

    Paul Bellow Forum Game Master Staff Member LitRPG Author Shop Owner Citizen Aspiring Writer

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    I've added a new bit about "Why the Jumanji Movie is LitRPG" to the What is LitRPG page...It's toward the bottom ...
     
  5. Matthew Sylvester

    Matthew Sylvester Level 7 (Cutpurse) LitRPG Author Roleplaying Citizen

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    Why does it actually have to be an MMORPG? Why not a tactical RPG, or something like Ghost Recon or The Division where you can only play with three other humans?
     
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  6. Matthew Sylvester

    Matthew Sylvester Level 7 (Cutpurse) LitRPG Author Roleplaying Citizen

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    Yeah, and we're going to see a lot more games where stats and leveling are pushed to the back with VR coming up.
     
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  7. Matthew Sylvester

    Matthew Sylvester Level 7 (Cutpurse) LitRPG Author Roleplaying Citizen

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    Bingo :) I should have read further down before posting :)
     
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  8. Matthew Sylvester

    Matthew Sylvester Level 7 (Cutpurse) LitRPG Author Roleplaying Citizen

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    Rule 1 can go.
     
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  9. Matthew Sylvester

    Matthew Sylvester Level 7 (Cutpurse) LitRPG Author Roleplaying Citizen

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    Actually, I think that game-like should be be considered, so long as the gamification is obvious. Using the Narnian example, it's just like the stories of King Arthur etc. Not really game like, it's just that because we base games on these books and their ilk that we can now consider them gamelike.

    However, I've pitched a book to Abaddon where the rulers of a planet have gamified every aspect of life. Drop litter? Bad karma and a fine, which pops up on a retinal display. Work at something? Nanobots give you an increased skill. Are they playing characters in a game? No, they're real people trying to do their best in a dystopian society. But it's still a 'game' from our perspective. :)
     
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  10. Matthew Sylvester

    Matthew Sylvester Level 7 (Cutpurse) LitRPG Author Roleplaying Citizen

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    No, they only want books that conform to Aleron's definition. Anything outside of that isn't allowed to be promoted, and Ramon reviews the book and says 'not LitRPG'. Between the two of them a lot of LitRPG books aren't getting the love they should. And yes, that includes mine because I went 'lite' to appeal to a broader range of readers.
     
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  11. Matthew Siege

    Matthew Siege Level 10 (Filcher) LitRPG Author Citizen

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    In future, if any of you have the chance to name a new genre of fiction, please refrain from using the words "lit" or "literature". It's redundant when describing the written form, and it makes me flinch when we say the new Jumanji movie is litRPG because I have to tell myself we're talking about the screenplay. Other genres do not use the naming convention, so it's silly. They're not litfantasy or litromance, so once again the "original" definition is far too narrow.
     
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  12. Conor Kostick

    Conor Kostick Level 12 (Rogue) LitRPG Author Beta Reader Citizen

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    Great work Paul, very inclusive. Thanks for the positive mention. I'll pass this link on via Twitter.
     
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  13. Asakust

    Asakust Level 9 (Burgler) Citizen Aspiring Writer

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    This is a little late, but my I suggest a small change to Conor’s first sentence? I will understand if you disagree as I’m new the the genre myself and had mostly immersed myself with the stuff from our Japanese… uh providers.:confused:

    I’ve come to view ‘Is it okay to pick up girls in a Dungeon?’ As a story set in an alternate or parallel universe where a god or goddess’ gift enables a mortal to quickly gain power, magic and skills.

    And to provide another "Anime" to consider as LitRPG, is the recently aired King's Avatar. Where the story is set between today's Chinese E-Sports scene and the popular and highly competitive MMORPG that they are playing. The story follows the MC as he level's his character, offers to do favors for loot, and aims to rise as a E-sports champion.

    SAO is VR game.
    King's Avatar is also a game, although it is not set in VR but it has the game mechanics as you are watching him play a game (a lot).
    And finally ‘Is it okay to pick up girls in a Dungeon?’ is not a game, but an "Isekai" or Another world story... without a character from our reality being sent to theirs... yet it has game like elements provided by their gods and a game like environment provided by the titular "Dungeon."

    So can we instead say: “LitRPG as a literary genre where games or game-like elements form an essential part of the landscape?”

    I just personally feel that just saying “game-like challenges” is limiting. :confused:

    This was probably too big a topic to tackle with a sleepy head, but it was bothering me... I hope that it doesn't bite me in the morning.:p

    I too originally thought that LitRPG was what they were saying. However, hearing or reading “Barely LitRPG” has made me raise a few questions. And I feel a bit more open to ideas after reading this thread.
     
  14. Conor Kostick

    Conor Kostick Level 12 (Rogue) LitRPG Author Beta Reader Citizen

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    Hi Asakust, I think you've polished the definition a bit more and that elements is much better - more encompassing - than challenges. So our current iteration reads:

    LitRPG is a literary genre where games or game-like elements form an essential part of the landscape. A LitRPG work simultaneously narrates the story of characters inside and outside of the game-world. At least some of the characters in a LitRPG novel therefore understand that they are playing a game: they are 'meta-aware'. So, while Tolkien's Lord of the Rings is a fantasy novel, a book about people creating avatars and interacting in a Lord of the Rings MMORPG would be a LitRPG novel.
     
  15. Paul Bellow

    Paul Bellow Forum Game Master Staff Member LitRPG Author Shop Owner Citizen Aspiring Writer

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    I'll get it swapped out on the LitRPG Reads site as well.
     
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  16. Asakust

    Asakust Level 9 (Burgler) Citizen Aspiring Writer

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    I'm relieved know that last night wasn't a waste of anyone's time. And that I didn’t forgo sleep for an hour for nothing. (lol)

    But I just noticed...

    Do we need this part? If we agree that ‘Is it okay to pick up girls in a Dungeon?’ is a LitRPG. And I would now describe as it as a fantasy story with game-like elements. Then doesn't this line declare it's not LitRPG?

    May I suggest this:

    “LitRPG is a literary genre where games or game-like elements form an essential part of the Landscape. Characters in a LitRPG novel are aware, make active use of or have lives that are strongly influenced by a game or game-like features of the world.”

    May I also suggest using a fantasy novel with game like elements (Only ‘Is it okay to pick up girls in a Dungeon?’ comes to my mind right now.) in addition to using the Lord of the Rings example made?

    I feel that I could add or refine it a little more, but I’m a little out of time for now. What do you think?
     
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  17. Paul Bellow

    Paul Bellow Forum Game Master Staff Member LitRPG Author Shop Owner Citizen Aspiring Writer

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    I like that it's a work in progress. As @Jake Bible and others have mentioned, it's not really done much in other genres - they evolve over time. Kinda like herding cats? Heh. I do enjoy this conversation we've been having about it.

    [​IMG]
     
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  18. Asakust

    Asakust Level 9 (Burgler) Citizen Aspiring Writer

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    Something to ponder,

    If someone wrote a romance novel centered between two teen lovers, who are having a long distance relationship and are using an MMORPG as a communication medium. In the story they are not shown to have develop or play their character outside their courtships. They just use the game for its character emotes and maybe the cash shop for special costumes and gifts for their romance. The majority of the story tells of their interactions in-game and maybe even having a game wedding.

    Would we define this as a LitRPG Romance?

    Or do we out right say it's not LitRPG because the lovers did not level up, gain skills, cool loot or face game like opposition?

    I might be inclined to say that it would depend on how the author writes it. But what do you guys think?
     
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  19. Paul Bellow

    Paul Bellow Forum Game Master Staff Member LitRPG Author Shop Owner Citizen Aspiring Writer

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    I'd call it Geek Romance (small but existing niche) or LitRPG Romance... LitRPG Erotica gets a ton of searches on Amazon.

    Does depend on the final product too, I think.
     
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  20. Matthew James

    Matthew James Blind Beholder Beta Reader Citizen

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    I actually have an outline for a teen love story that keeps the game play elements. Without the gameplay stuff, or with just snippets of gameplay between whatever the plot is, the story becomes more like the .hack where PvP or PvE happen in the pursuit of the games secrets. Its LitRPG in my opinion if the game is used and the story takes place outside of the Safe-Zones for a game. So the .hack cgi movie where leveling is more of a montage and saving the game world is done within the game using the avatars and game mechanics, that's LitRPG. When its not even a montage sequence of them battling to get to a romantic picknet spot, then it would probably place the story's genre as subordinate to Romance. If its a simulation like Second Life and its nothing but Safe-Zones, then the role-playing part of RPG can still keep it in the genre in my opinion, but if there is just straight up long distance boning / sexual frustration with no game and no role playing... send it to another genre.

    As it is right now it adequately addresses the different perspectives of characters, not satisfactorily but at least in part. The initial genre definition should be something bite size, and thats why expanding it too much is a no go. Tower of Druaga is based in a game world, and its what I would call a LitRPG Lore title, but the initial definition is just to give people a basic understanding. Diving into subgenres in the blurb is a bit like having a story blurb on the back cover, but also the books chapter outline.

    Not information that makes someone any more likely to pick up the book.

    Right now I'm trying to marry my rough outline between what I call "Modern Perspective" with Meta-Awareness and Audience perspective, but there is plenty of bleed between the story telling types. For example, when the story is from the perspective of a group of NPCs who fully accept the rules of their world even as players dance around talking about the game as though its a game, that is what I call an audience perspective because the reader is aware that the story world is a VRMMO. But in a story like Tower of Druaga where its not actually a game or a portal world story, the Meta-awareness factor about the rules of the world make it literally a games lore made with plausible "Magic World Physics". The same with Halo books and World of Warcraft comics or books, or any Game / Movie fiction that is indiscernable from fantasy.

    There is already a genre for adaptations, so for those sort of stories to remain LitRPG Lore, they would have to maintain mostly uniform rule sets and not a lot of way out there abilities unless the characters pulling shit off were the equivalent of NPCs with epic abilities. Think quest NPCs who can teleport players in ways that a magician, wizard, or druid in a MMO couldn't replicate: transferring someone from inside their lair at the bottom of a mountain to the very peak of the mountain so they can perform a quest called "Leap of Faith". If such a utility is reproduceable, then the story should provide some clue to its execution. Linked teleporter pads made of a specific material and crafted by a specific person or group, providing in game clues that a person could use to get their own lair/teleportation pads.

    In the future I hope LitRPG easter eggs are less like cryptographer / uber nerds contests like RPO pulled off, and just a general game guide or hints at the universe itself.

    My main story I'm working on takes place in VR over 7ish years (nearly 20 years including pre-VR game stories), and instead of following one group of players, it explores the game world and different play styles in different eras of the game. I've got Alt-History, more bromances than romances, sci-fi world building, and a whole pantheon / magic system and game design philosophy for the owner/operator side of things. None of the stakes are life and death, at least none that are caused by the game, but I think using LoTR as the genre example is great because it uses a popular novel format world as the genre's foundation. Using a story that explicitly has levels (which my world doesn't) or that uses an example that mixes up the VRMMO / MMO perspective with an "alternate world / Isekai" setting would muddle further with the definition and require an even higher word count.
     
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