What's a good definition of LitRPG?

Discussion in 'All Things LitRPG' started by Conor Kostick, May 17, 2017.

  1. Felicity Weiss

    Felicity Weiss Musey Muse Muse Shop Owner Citizen

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    hahaha ... he said boning. /deep contribution out
     
  2. Matthew James

    Matthew James Blind Beholder Beta Reader Citizen

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    /deep.... /deep... /deep... /deep

    [​IMG]
     
  3. James G Patton

    James G Patton Horrific Pun Master LitRPG Author Citizen

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    See I disagree with this. RPG Fiction books have been around for a long time, but I would not go back and relabel them as 'LitRPG'. In my opinion, the explicit progression is the defining feature of LitRPG, otherwise it could be classified as cyberpunk or one of its sub genres.

    I honestly believe the issue people are having is that LitRPG defined itself as a sub genre to a genre that does not exist yet. I dub thee RPG Fiction (RPGF or RPG-F whatever). This will define a whole new generation of fiction, and its one defining trait is that your story takes place inside a game world. Then you have a subgenre of LitRPG that has the main distinction of having explicit skill/level progression. Then add whatever other genres you want. RPG-F Erotica? Cool, oh and you have explicit progression in your mastery of condoms? Great you are now RPG-F-Erotica & RPG-F-LitRPG.

    Yea get over the name, call it whatever you want, I'll throw it on my book cover regardless.

    The bonus is you get to control your genre and tell everyone that LitRPG is the bastard child of your genre. This is great news for a troll like me. Shoot my popcorn is burning, I'll be right back.
     
  4. Matthew James

    Matthew James Blind Beholder Beta Reader Citizen

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    Lmao I call it the "Games" genre and that was my exact angle on the "What is LitRPG?" short book I'm working on. Stacked right there alongside Sports / History with augmented reality / vr gaming of the future providing gaming leagues etc. Problem is my intro is so ridiculously over the top it ruined the tone of the rest of the material I had written. Now instead of doing the stream of consciousness / totally unorganized but coherent material I had before, I have to break it down by chapters and keep it all tied in to that main theme.

    Which is a total pain in my ass becaue staying somewhat serious and writing like a text book writer cum weirdo cultist waiting for the mothership, on the topic of gaming of all things, isn't something I had planned on this Summer.

    I feel like a Star Trek captain when I read my crap out loud atm... and not sure thats a tone I want to keep with!

    "These are the writings of the LitRPG Forum: Outcast. To explore the genre from new and profound angles, to travel the furthest depths of the imagination and to revitalize dated tropes. Our mission is beset by danger: unreceptive fans, few publishing options, and foreign nations with superior logistical support. Failure, is not an option."
     
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  5. Paul Bellow

    Paul Bellow Forum Game Master Staff Member LitRPG Author Shop Owner Citizen Aspiring Writer

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    "LitRPG Forum: Outcast. To explore the genre from new and profound angles, to travel the furthest depths of the imagination and to revitalize dated tropes. Our mission is beset by danger: unreceptive fans, few publishing options, and foreign nations with superior logistical support. Failure, is not an option."

    Can I hire someone to do a voice-over and use that for a video? HAha. Half-kidding! ;)
     
  6. James G Patton

    James G Patton Horrific Pun Master LitRPG Author Citizen

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    Or RPG-Fi, like Sci-Fi, only cooler.

    Or maybe I should come up with a logo/stamp that I can just put on my cover here is my ten minute logo:
    RPG-Fi Logo.png
    Haha, people are going to be so confused.
     
  7. James G Patton

    James G Patton Horrific Pun Master LitRPG Author Citizen

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    Great minds and all that haha.
     
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  8. Matthew James

    Matthew James Blind Beholder Beta Reader Citizen

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    Here is what I have on page 3/7 of an unformatted page of text... which is my intro.

    "In truth LitRPG should not belong to the subgenre of Fantasy, Science Fiction, or Science Fantasy. It should belong to a standalone genre beneath both Fiction and Non-Fiction in the same way that history and religion are full fledged disciplines and genres in their own right. However it should not be direct neighbors with either of the previously mentioned genres; as it is a genre subordinate to a yet to exist category called simply: Games.

    A genre where non-fiction autobiographies and biographical accounts will some day recognize the virtual or augmented prowess of those whom are admired and idolized, for stealing away much of the precious limited attention of the human life span for mere meaningless distraction. According to parties who will remain un-named. While the anhedonic and happily ascetic may find sports and games impenetrable to their comprehension, others without such cognitive impediments to meaningless fun will embrace "Games" stories just as much as the less happily ascetic embrace sports and all its minutia. As "Sports" also encompasses both non-fiction and fiction, but through a filter of commercial businesses geared exactly towards that genre which encompasses both print and broadcast media.

    When something is not "Sports", it is sports, but subordinate to a greater fictional archetype, such as: comedy, romance, drama, or action. Sports Action being both a theoretical genre and the actual apocryphal language of golf announcers everywhere.

    LitRPG while having had its name derived solely from the combining of books and popular game genres, is more than fiction, but remains depressingly non-fiction and without a more appropriate home for the foreseeable future.

    Unlike Literary Fiction, which prides itself on an insular understanding and critical rather than commercial success, though such things are apples to oranges and in no way reflect the actual wealth of a writer; LitRPG offers the world not just titillation and the potential for equally reflective literary works as any other fiction genre, it offers a Lighthouse for the creators of the future to find their way home.

    LitRPG, which was given a name and a place in commercial markets to only a few <to some few> scattered hallelujahs, offers far more than its own prophecies or self congratulations amongst insular sycophants. Its a genre which offers itself up not as a category of critical success and acclaim, but critical failures and stumbles. Its adherents all very willing to be pilloried today if their small contributions will some day inform the future of their games."

    And it just keeps going... I may need an intervention.
     
  9. Blaise

    Blaise Level 6 (Footpad) LitRPG Author Citizen

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    *Watching this thread*

    As an aside, as someone who wrote a public definition of what LitRPG is and kind of influenced the discussion, all the different directions this conversation has gone interests me.
     
  10. MrPotatoMan

    MrPotatoMan Level 13 (Assassin) Citizen

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    I think LitRPG is more then just games, if you look some of the outliers set more in a game-like fantasy world the main element that ties them together isnt progression, but i would argue a strong element of inspiration from pop culture or games that you wouldn't usually find in a book. For example in Sufficiently Advanced Magic or Blaise's books(the two main outliers im talking about) the idea of a going into dungeon for loot is something you typically find in fantasy books but isnt necessarily a game mechanic either but an idea invented by games and then adapted into book format. I think the idea of stats and to some extent levels is a way of adapting real life into a game rather then a new mechanic in itself it further complicates things when you put those into a book about a super realistic game which if you think about it probably wouldn't have these mechanics.

    I do think levels or skills are somewhat necessary as it provides a good way of the player learning new things and still have that LitRPG feel but these dont need to be hard-locked like so many authors chose to do where you unlock these skills with points and cant do anything more then they say. A good example of a non hard-locked levels system is Sufficiently advanced magic where levels are mearly indicators of your skill and power rather then the determinator of your limit.

    I would also like to add that I dont think progression is limited to levels and items it can be Story progression or Economic progression.
    Im not sure of the consensus of SAM as a LitRPG and a large part of my argument revolved around it and I personally believe it is although im willing to discuss the point with anyone. Also sorry for my bad punctuation Its always been my weakness :(.
     
  11. Paul Bellow

    Paul Bellow Forum Game Master Staff Member LitRPG Author Shop Owner Citizen Aspiring Writer

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    Not a problem. Welcome to the discussion. I think you'll find many here agree with you.
     
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  12. James G Patton

    James G Patton Horrific Pun Master LitRPG Author Citizen

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    Most do not consider Sufficiently Advanced Magic as LitRPG. I honestly am not sure why its such a heated discussion. Regardless of its believability, the concept of LitRPG in most people's mind is that it exists in a game like world with system type messages. Regardless of how we want to qualify it, the readers are the ones who make that determination in their reviews, and the majority of them expect these things.

    But it does emphasize the point I made before about LitRPG being a sub genre of a nonexistent genre. I dubbed it RPG Fiction or RPG-Fi, which Sufficiently Advanced Magic would fall under. The only defining feature of LitRPG at that point would be its skill up menus, and then under RPG-Fi you can have multiple genres.

    I personally would not risk labeling my book as LitRPG unless I had the game world and skill up/system messages. I've seen good books get really crappy reviews for calling themselves LitRPG and not having those elements. I might brand it as a loosely based LitRPG and give the readers a heads up, but as an indy author I would not want to risk irritating the fan base. So regardless of how the argument goes, the point I am making is that public opinion rules all.
     
  13. Paul Bellow

    Paul Bellow Forum Game Master Staff Member LitRPG Author Shop Owner Citizen Aspiring Writer

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    Or just use LitRPG in the keywords not publicly ... I've heard of a few authors doing this... Crap. Now I need to scrap the LitRPG Forum! ;)

    [​IMG]
     
  14. Paul Bellow

    Paul Bellow Forum Game Master Staff Member LitRPG Author Shop Owner Citizen Aspiring Writer

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    Side note...I'm getting traffic for "rpg lit" "literary rpg" "rpg books" and "rpg novels" now...
     
  15. MrPotatoMan

    MrPotatoMan Level 13 (Assassin) Citizen

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    I think it might be good to take an idea from Sci-Fi and split LitRPG into two subdivisions soft and hard, Here are my ideas for the two definitions.

    Soft being books with taken elements from gaming and pop culture that were worked into the fabric of the in game world (not by the ordinary citizens of that world but by a divine being or just the natural order) with a heavy emphasis on progression and often times wildly different areas like dungeons that are filled with outside information.

    Hard being LitRPG that is set in a world where the MCs think that they are playing a game and one of the two worlds is not real or they both exist in the same universe and one world is lying to the other about having free will or lack thereof(free will being the ability to not be controlled by an outside force ie. a program).

    I also think one of the common elements that is almost perfectly consistant throughout all LitRPGs is the presence of a supremely powerful being or god(possibly self proclaimed or just a rank) that is not perfect and distant for example in Delvers you have Dolos and in alter world you have the dark god both are clearly imperfect beings if incredibly strong oftentimes this(these) being(beings) is an outside operator someone who knows about both worlds and can change the new one the MCs find them selfs in.

    PS. Have any of you read Demons of Astlan? I consider it on the lines of a soft LitRPG drifting into portal fantasy but I would like a second opinion given that that was one of the things that inspired my two definitions. Its also currently one of my favorites so it hopefully will be enjoyable if you do decide to read it :) Again as with everything this is all open for discussion.
     
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  16. Matthew Sylvester

    Matthew Sylvester Level 7 (Cutpurse) LitRPG Author Roleplaying Citizen

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    I don't think it's necessarily the fan base that are giving the crappy reviews, but author and reviewers with a vested interest in keeping things a certain way.
     
  17. Asakust

    Asakust Level 9 (Burgler) Citizen Aspiring Writer

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    It's sad that I can't disagree with that. Cliques are everywhere, unfortunately.
     
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  18. Tfish10065

    Tfish10065 Level 9 (Burgler) LitRPG Author Citizen

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    After reading all the comments, I'm more confused now than I was before. LOL
     
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  19. James G Patton

    James G Patton Horrific Pun Master LitRPG Author Citizen

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    Haha, I cannot disagree with that. I tried to keep it simple, but it keeps going on tangents.

    Genres:
    • LitRPG: Game world with System messages and skill ups.
    • Portal Fantasy: You enter a fantasy world in which you are trapped (this could be virtual). Like Stephen R. Donadson's Lord Fouls Bane.
    • Cyberpunk: Covers Virtual Reality worlds, usually sci fi setting, but it has variations like Steampunk or Nanopunk

    LitRPG fills in a niche right between those two things, and my take is if you remove the Game Menus and Systems, you take away its uniqueness and the story verges into either Portal Fantasy or Cyberpunk.

    If it was me I would do something like:
    • Fiction
      • Science Fiction
        • Cyberpunk
          • NanoPunk
          • SteamPunk
      • Fantasy
        • Portal Fantasy
      • RPG-Fiction (Parent Genre) - Story revolves around a game based world. (This could have been held by LitRPG but too many people with too many opinions are tainting it, so it would always be contested.)
        • LitRPG - Has Game Menu, stats, skill ups etc.
        • Tower RPG - Tower climbers
        • FPS-RPG - First person shooter games
        • Alternate Perspective - Stories are told through a game point of view
          • Dungeon POV
          • Monster POV

    Mash it up however you want. When you choose the 'Genre' label for your book you might Choose RPG-Fi-LitRPG and RPG-Fi-Alternate Perspective-Dungeon POV as your categories.
     
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  20. Dustin Tigner

    Dustin Tigner Level 12 (Rogue) LitRPG Author Citizen

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    I've read all the posts here and given the topic a lot of thought.

    The forming of a genre comes about organically. We're not here to contain or stretch what the genre is. We're here to understand it, and through that understanding, define it so that others may understand it.

    How a book is labeled presents a promise to the reader. An expectation that readers have set, not authors. The closer the book meets that expectation, the happier the reader will be.

    The problem I sense is, the label and expectation are not matching. I would say that this is natural--it's a part of the organic process. A process of hits and misses. Eventually, as the genre grows, it'll become more precise, and break-off genres will come about and evolve on their own.

    We could very well be at that point right now. What we think is LitRPG may, in fact, be a different genre with similarities.

    My definition of LitRPG is simple and subjective. It's something I've been grinding on for weeks now. And something I'll continue to think upon and change.

    "A LitRPG should instill a desire to play or experience an MMORPG."

    For me, this is the core of what the genre is. It's what I am looking for when I read a LitRPG. And when done well, I find myself searching the Internet for new MMORPGs. After AlterWorld, I played a good 20-30 hours of Albion Online (no interest to play this game until I read the book). The book wasn't that great, and I decided not to continue with the series. Even so, it compelled me to play a game. It scratched a bit of the MMORPG itch.

    And yet, I don't believe any of my planned books fit my LitRPG definition. None of them instill a desire to play an MMORPG. I'm a bit distraught at this revelation in my thinking.

    My books use game-play mechanics and a game world to tell the story. There is character progression. In all other definitions of the genre, my upcoming books would be LitRPG.

    Instead, I've thought a lot about how I define my works. Perhaps instead of LitRPG, it's a Science Fiction GameMech--Apoc Thriller. The game is a post apocalypse, zombie survival contest.

    By trying to make a story fit a genre, you might have to change it. I've gone back and rewrote a chunk of my current book to make it fit better with LitRPG. Added skills and levels. Removed pain. Made it more game-like. Does this make the story better, or just make it fit better with the genre?

    In any case, I wanted to add my thoughts to the discussion. It may be beneficial to be more specific with these genres and branch out to other names so that we can control reader expectation.

    What genres can we observe, that may better fit stories that are marked LitRPG? For instance GameMech / GameMechanics as a genre, or parent genre, of LitRPG.

    (I would say Game Fiction, though I believe that would include a Halo book, which is about a game's lore, though the story doesn't take place within a game).
     
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