why are so many MCs in this genre unlikeable or handicapped by stupidity?

Discussion in 'All Things LitRPG' started by grimshawl, Apr 10, 2018.

  1. grimshawl

    grimshawl Level 9 (Burgler) LitRPG Author Citizen

    48%
    Messages:
    112
    Likes:
    118
    xp:
    224
    LitCoin:
    670,468
    Zorkmid:
    131
    I am just wondering is it me or do a somewhat large number of the main characters in litrpg series either come off as not particularly likeable or alternately as being incredibly naïve or stupid characters who make terrible decisions throughout much of their stories. As for the first type, call me crazy but I actually want to like the main character in almost any book I read. They don't have to be a saint but I should at least like them. The second type is even more common and is usually a bit likeable but just so clueless, naïve or stupid that you feeling like hitting your head when you read their stories. What makes them worse is that they are often described as the story begins as veteran gamers and secondly that as they make these mistakes they often think about how stupid they are being or how much their messing up and go into mental monologs about it but they just keep on down the same paths regardless. Then there are the clueless harem collectors who have heaps of interested women falling all over themselves to be with them and spend the majority of their books unintentionally stringing them along and making all the girls miserable. I am with you girls, because he is doing the same thing to me by being a dilbert. Considering how there are a lot of similarities to these stories with heroic fantasy it makes it hard to accept so many wimps and dawdlers as main characters. Not everybody needs to be Conan or Indiana Jones or Laura Croft but cant at least some of them follow that path. Just my two cents anyway.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2018
    Viergacht and Alexis Keane like this.
  2. TWErvin2

    TWErvin2 Level 11 (Thief) LitRPG Author Citizen

    28%
    Messages:
    249
    Likes:
    276
    xp:
    314
    LitCoin:
    503
    Zorkmid:
    7
    Just a few thoughts:
    Unlikable main character, the reader reads, hoping the MC gets their comeuppance or payback for their actions, and maybe learn a lesson and change.
    Naive main character, or one that makes poor decisions, is a tool to create conflict and an opportunity for the reader to learn about how the game world works.
    I cannot say about the Harem sort of things, as I don't read that.

    In my novels (Fantasy/SF/LitRPG), I tend to have somewhat inexperienced MCs for their situation, but not in the habit of making stupid choices, or at least not without their flawed logic. The inexperience allows the readers an early peek into the world, and to grow some in knowledge and experience in conjunction with the MC. Some of my protagonists are more likable than others, but that's a function of their personality, situation, and goals.
     
    grimshawl likes this.
  3. SmilingBlueWolf

    SmilingBlueWolf Level 9 (Burgler) Citizen Aspiring Writer

    6%
    Messages:
    53
    Likes:
    81
    xp:
    203
    LitCoin:
    997,332
    Zorkmid:
    174
    When reading, I know exactly why I dislike that MC. When writing, I'm not really sure if my MC is likeable to others or not. I know exactly what you are talking about: naive, stupid or unethical MCs come as unlikeable for me and I can't even finish their stories. There was a time when I liked MCs that started weak/naive/innocent and grew, but the problem is HOW LONG it took him to grow. Overall, I see it more as a problem when the author forces the character into making a stupid decision simply to generate conflict. It's a pitfall any author can fall on, but I'd like to avoid it. But you don't know what an unlikeable MC is until you have read the Chinese Xianxia genre. They are kinda the opposite of naive, but still make dumb decisions all the time. I swear they often have some of the worst MCs ever. They all think they are the best, that being arrogant is the greatest thing ever, they behave in stupid ways because as the mc they can't be killed, they often have stupid ideas and don't even reflect on how stupid it was. I use this genre MCs most of the time as an example of what NOT to do when writing LitRPG. Oh, and I won't even get started in some of the most problematic topics, such as their view of women. (Don't read me wrong, I really like some novels in the genre, it's just that most of the MCs there are unlikeable to the core.)
     
    Yuli Ban and grimshawl like this.
  4. ChamomileHasANovel

    ChamomileHasANovel Level 7 (Cutpurse) Beta Reader Citizen

    76%
    Messages:
    37
    Likes:
    52
    xp:
    138
    LitCoin:
    1,166,206
    Zorkmid:
    92
    Because their audience is people with low self-esteem who want wish fulfillment. Shia LeBeouf's character in Transformers is the same thing. The fundamental message is "imagine a world where a dipshit loser like you saves the day and gets the girl." People with poor enough self-esteem to think of themselves as dipshit losers really like this sort of thing. Xianxia protagonists are the same thing with a different demographic. They're aimed at people who want to be the biggest, strongest sociopath in a world where sociopathic behavior is the norm (and sociopathic behavior is the norm in parts of China, which is why its primary audience is there - the genre is kind of disturbing if you expect most people to have some semblance of compassion and gratitude, but straightforward wish fulfillment if "everyone behaves like a sociopath" is your normal and "but you are the biggest and strongest sociopath" is the only part that's different).
     
  5. Dragovian

    Dragovian Over-enthusiastic Tank wtb Pocket Healer LitRPG Author Beta Reader Citizen

    36%
    Messages:
    95
    Likes:
    164
    xp:
    218
    LitCoin:
    645,608
    Zorkmid:
    127
    That's one of the issues I ran into in the second Dodge Tank book. Don't set up a super-duper amazing character who supposedly is best at X and highly familiar with Y, and then have him do something ragingly stupid that can only end badly. Find a better way to ramp up your drama than the idiot ball.

    Also, I play a tank and if your character keeps forgetting to use his active mitigation I will be silently judging him.
     
  6. Gryphon

    Gryphon Level 18 (Magician) LitRPG Author Citizen

    43%
    Messages:
    992
    Likes:
    1,287
    xp:
    943
    LitCoin:
    1,425,677
    Zorkmid:
    360
    As someone that played the tank for raids, dungeons, and general farming, I am always judging tank characters. If they aren't drawing aggro, building aggro, or taking hits to keep the party safe, they aren't really a tank in my eyes. Very rarely is a tank the main damage dealer, and when they are, your party seems to be bad.
     
    Dragovian likes this.
  7. Dragovian

    Dragovian Over-enthusiastic Tank wtb Pocket Healer LitRPG Author Beta Reader Citizen

    36%
    Messages:
    95
    Likes:
    164
    xp:
    218
    LitCoin:
    645,608
    Zorkmid:
    127
    It always bugs me when someone writes a "tank" who is really "unstoppable DPS god" instead. Or when it's some noob player who does something stupid that JUST HAPPENS to unlock some special ability...
     
  8. Yuli Ban

    Yuli Ban Level 18 (Magician) LitRPG Author Citizen Aspiring Writer

    18%
    Messages:
    1,172
    Likes:
    959
    xp:
    918
    LitCoin:
    598,334
    Zorkmid:
    38
    Alright, let me just drop a heavy truth bomb: it's because many people writing this genre are not good writers. I can't say much about my own ability, but the thing is that I can at least recognize others' ability. But it's not due to some fascist idea that there are only a handful of "good" writers at any one time. It's only because a lot of people writing LitRPG books are basically writing their first novels ever and are still learning the ropes in a genre where the beats are much more relaxed than in other, more traditional genres (as mentioned, you can get away with transcribing a WoW session into prose). And most of the books in the genre are sold online, so no one has to go through the rigamarole of the dramas of trying to get a contract with a big house publisher.
    Because they don't go through the big names, they don't face rejection. They don't have to spend years out of their lives rewriting what was supposed to be flawless final drafts, fixing 120k word manuscripts by redoing every single word until the damn thing looks like it could've come from Shakespeare's rewrite of the Bible, ship it to an editor who then tells you the thing looks like Bigfoot's scrote and reads just as comprehensibly, and then rewrite it again only to send it in and face rejection. A good editor will whip you into shape and transform you into a thoughtless, order-following author.
    You don't have to go through that with e-publishing, and while that helps with the stress, it also does deny you that learning opportunity.
    It's a damn cold truth that it seems a lot of people in the LitRPG scene tend to ignore or at least infer without directly referencing, but it's how I discovered LitRPG in the first place and I can't deny that regardless of how shallow it makes me look: a very large number of LitRPG writers got into the game (no pun intended) because they heard that it is a money tree in a rainforest.
    It's sort of like mpreg novels: as long as each book has 50,000 words or you have a brand, you only need two or three books to make 4 figures a month, and maybe double that to make 5 figures a month. That's very attractive in a capitalist economy. It's easy money.
    LitRPG is even more lucrative. I can't say whether or not I'll join the fray (I hope I do) or whether I'll be the failed bastards whose novel debuts at #50,000 and drops from there, but I've seen more LitRPG first timers debut at around #1,000 or even above that than just about any other genre. They didn't have a single goddamn brand. They barely promoted except on Facebook groups and some forums. They didn't have any previous works (or at least they didn't say they did), and sometimes it showed badly. But they managed to make $10,000 in a single month writing 100k words about the love triangle between a man, his sword, and the former upper bodies of about a thousand goblins in a future MMORPG.

    One of the ways it shows badly is with these unlikeable protagonists. In mainstream fiction, there's a few fundamental rules of thumbs:
    1: There must be a conflict
    2: The protagonist must overcome obstacles to win (or lose) that conflict.
    3: The protagonist's overcoming of those obstacles should be believable and satisfying.
    AKA, they shouldn't be a Mary Sue who doesn't really struggle or have a reason to need whatever it is they're fighting for.
    The best characters in fiction always had a flaw, something that made them "relatable" or "down to Earth" or "believable" or some such buzzword. There needs to be conflict to move the story, so this character has to act in a way that doesn't seem OP.

    When newcomer writers decide to try that out, especially in a genre where the protagonist is meant to be an underdog, their ideas on how to portray that is to make the MC stupid/naive/unrealistically imperceptive.

    A big reason for this is because of the disconnect between reality and narrative. Fiction has to make sense, as Mark Twain said. And our brains are very limited. We are efficiently evolved towards hunting and foraging, not simulating large populations interacting with each other. This is why fictional worlds often seem so simplified. Why when we imagine the future, we always oversimply things. Real history was extremely complex and full of personal life stories that all coalesced into epic events of human development that could be generalized into collective actions and individual excellence, but future history always has token civil rights movements that have simple origins, corporations and governments that outright ignore reason or the idea that they're staffed with humans, revolutions and insurgencies that are unusually well financed without any reason, geopolitics so impossibly unrealistic that it borders on being high fantasy set in modern times, overly simplistic economic systems that would crash and burn with billions of deaths if actually tried in real life, basically stories where only the protagonist exists and any other aberration can be written off as "the protagonist, but the different character in a different place". The idea that those pair of eyes over there also contain a life just as rich as your own is discarded in lieu of "three positive character traits, three negative character traits, paragraph of description, societal role, done". And the idea that there are billions of such pairs of eyes is too cumbersome to deal with.
    You can do the same for fantasy, but it's often much worse, especially when you have the concept of differently abled races or physics-defying magic in a world where physics still clearly exists in some form (e.g. gravity still works, planets are round, things still react a certain way, etc.).

    We don't think about these things, and that's alright. That's just natural.

    The problem arises when writers so don't think about how simplified fictional worlds are that having any person acting "rationally", i.e. like a real human being, effectively destroys the entire thing and makes them look like a Mary Sue. So the only way to limit them and keep the story going is to have them make inconceivably stupid decisions that defy all common sense. How millions of people underwent the exact same thing the protagonist is now but never once thought to take this blatantly obvious path/exploit/strategy doesn't make sense in real life but it works for the sake of fiction.
     
  9. Yuli Ban

    Yuli Ban Level 18 (Magician) LitRPG Author Citizen Aspiring Writer

    18%
    Messages:
    1,172
    Likes:
    959
    xp:
    918
    LitCoin:
    598,334
    Zorkmid:
    38
    Another problem that I recently identified is that some writers (especially the new ones) don't understand the difference between a "character flaw" and a "flawed character trait".
    The example I used was a protagonist with depression. In my upcoming novel (Nightmare Online), the main character has depression, but that's not his character flaw. It's one of the effects of his flaw, but it's not something that's going to come up as a major plot point until later books. His actual flaw is that he's greedy but also too selfless or weak-willed for his own good (more in the way of "I don't want to step on anyone's toes or be anyone's enemy"), causing him to freeze up and naturally make risky decisions when it comes down to things like choosing between money and his mates. But because he wants to have a financially secure life and the game allows him this opportunity, he has to make these tough decisions regardless. A lot of the time, he has to choose between maximizing profit and keeping the peace, and while he wants the former, he has a pathological need for the latter. What's more, if he doesn't choose the former, some aspect of his life will be made worse, like the lights being shut off. The main antagonist has the greed problem and goes about it in the most anti-player way, deciding to go all in on it rather than making any choice.

    See how the conflict writes itself? That's a sign that you have a character flaw. And it's not like I'm some master writer for figuring this out, that I'm a postgraduate in physics while you peons are silly freshmen at the community college: the thing about character flaws is that they literally drive the story, because stories are about conflict.

    Protagonists in comedies (comedy= protagonist wins, not funny stories) overcome their flaws. Antagonists and protagonists in tragedies are characters who don't.
    See this:


    First-time writers and writers who never went through the big houses tend to take longer to figure this out. Thus, they don't realize that it isn't enough for your character to be a wise-cracking asshole who has strong opinions against feminism, thinks of himself as a socially retarded loser in life, and averages Cs and Ds in school to make him "flawed", especially if none of that really affects the ending. It definitely adds flavor and can affect the plot itself, and these flawed traits can even become outright character flaws in later stories, but if there's nothing holding back the MC besides "the plot demands you do not fix things immediately", you tend to have unlikable protagonists.

    Example: naive asshole comes across a high level troll and overcomes it by BSing a major power boost and it turns out no one else ever thought of doing that before, then drops some Captain Obvious snark and clashes with the Lancer, who says he could have taken the troll and the Heart has to stop them from fighting. Eventually, they all make up in the end long enough to defeat the Dark Lord's player character dragon, a goth-designed Knight with a personal beef with the asshole, who the asshole defeats with an asspull Power of Friendship power up.

    Compared to naive asshole comes across a high level troll and thinks he overcomes it by BSing a major power boost, but it turns out everyone ever in the history of ever thought of doing that and he has to stop being an asshole and find the Lancer whose help he argued to the Heart he didn't need but it hurts his Degree in Asshole Studies to even think of using that option because the Lancer doesn't like him being an asshole and he takes that as an affront to himself, and only if he stops being as much of an asshole does he overcome the troll. The Lancer thinks there's potential in the MC and rides off while the MC gets egg in his face for being an asshole when it clearly inhibited him all this time and struggles with himself over why it doesn't come naturally to him, and eventually after his assholism gets him in trouble again he pours out to the Heart that he wants to learn how to not be an asshole like her more often so he can excel in the game. The Heart reveals that it's a simple change but it's one that will require the asshole make a relatively large sacrifice to his character and stop being naive. For the sake of winning, he decides to undergo that trial. When they come across the goth Knight player, the former asshole calls upon the Lancer and the Heart to help him, and they eagerly agree because they actually like the guy now for overcoming his flaws even at great personal pain and the Knight, who eschewed friends for power, is defeated because the former asshole works with his team like a real leader.

    They're both the exact same character undergoing the exact same plot arc, but which one sounds more likable and engaging? The former doesn't change at all. Or more accurately, we're told he's changed because he happens to make up with the other two at the very last second to unleash the Ultimate Excalibur Kamehameha. We actually get to see the latter change and see that it was a change that wasn't without hardships because he actually liked being an asshole until it pounded him in his own asshole. The former feels like a vehicle for some power fantasy. The latter can still be a power fantasy, but the main character still grows. The plot in the former is full of things that have to happen because the writer wills it, whereas the plot in the latter is the MC's journey into overcoming his faults. They get the exact same prize, but I'd much rather read the latter (I mean, depending on my mood).

    Your MC doesn't need to be Jesus Christ to be likable. Some of the most famous and beloved characters in fiction are outright villains to someone else's heroic story, absolute scumbags that we'd sooner shank than want to share a beer with if we met them in real life. What makes them likable is that they have flaws that directly affect how they go through the plot.
    Rorschach from Watchmen would be an aggressively unlikable piece a shit if his flaws were just edgy colors on a typical antihero and not traits that directly affected how he went about doing things.





    Gordon Bennet, how did I write all that??

    tldr Newcomer writers hear that LitRPG is a goldmine (which it is) and decide to try it out. We get loads of first-time novels or novels from those who've never had a professional editor (if they could even afford some of these rates). As a result, they forget to give their characters flaws, mistaking flawed character traits for actual flaws (and that's only if there are flawed traits at all). This leads to MCs who don't actually grow and thus are basically unlikable with no chance for redemption, even if they grow out of their flawed traits.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2018
    Julian Khance and grimshawl like this.
  10. Gryphon

    Gryphon Level 18 (Magician) LitRPG Author Citizen

    43%
    Messages:
    992
    Likes:
    1,287
    xp:
    943
    LitCoin:
    1,425,677
    Zorkmid:
    360
    Awesome post, but one thing about it makes me wonder. Is a new genre really that big of a draw?
     
  11. Yuli Ban

    Yuli Ban Level 18 (Magician) LitRPG Author Citizen Aspiring Writer

    18%
    Messages:
    1,172
    Likes:
    959
    xp:
    918
    LitCoin:
    598,334
    Zorkmid:
    38
    Of course it is!
    The audience for LitRPG is eager for new stories. Writers hear that people will buy books that amount to reading about playing video games almost like literary versions of Lets Plays, something these writers love doing already but they never thought could be profitable until they saw LitRPG books filling up the top 2,000 ranks on Amazon, where first-time authors who were working droll $30k 8-to-5 jobs last month release two decent books and now have an extra $30,000 in the bank. I don't know how much LitRPG authors make on average since it's not even discussed like it is in romance, where earnings are often used for encouragement and inspiration (I think I counted five discussions on LitRPG's earning potential on this forum, and three of them were myself mentioning how profitable the genre is). But just by researching ranks, I can tell you that a lot of these names are not worrying about bills right now unless writing's their only means of support.

    Because it's such a new genre, everyone knows each other and will support one another as long as authors don't become exploitative scumbags who abuse their readers and readers don't become trolls trying to sabotage authors. Hell, you could still be questionable and still have a happy wallet— see Aleron King, whose attempts to trademark the genre are suspect at absolute best and scummy at worst, but I'd be damned if I said he couldn't write an awesome story.

    I'm not saying everyone in LitRPG is in it for the money— there are loads who are generally are into writing a video game-inspired genre. Hell, I've made it clear that my own first (and still unpublished) LitRPG story, Astral Falls, had its roots going back to a 2009 fanfic that was deliberately made to read like a fusion between prose and a JRPG complete with EXP, mana, leveling up, min-maxing, item storage systems, and even a lives system.

    But it's definitely an incentive for the genre to be a lot bigger than it otherwise would have been.
     
  12. grimshawl

    grimshawl Level 9 (Burgler) LitRPG Author Citizen

    48%
    Messages:
    112
    Likes:
    118
    xp:
    224
    LitCoin:
    670,468
    Zorkmid:
    131
    Yuli Ban, thanks for dropping some serious posts on this topic. I think your pretty much right. My book has been doin pretty well for itself and yet I know I should have held back and got more editing on it before publishing it. I am working to correct that now and get better editing done before hand on other stories I have written but not published yet. I really want to improve and tell my stories, the ability to make money doing it definitely isn't bad news to me.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2018
    Yuli Ban likes this.
  13. Gryphon

    Gryphon Level 18 (Magician) LitRPG Author Citizen

    43%
    Messages:
    992
    Likes:
    1,287
    xp:
    943
    LitCoin:
    1,425,677
    Zorkmid:
    360
    Honestly, I guess it makes sense especially with this generation.
    Kids love watching let's plays and streamers because they don't have the time or resources to play everything out there. Why should a book be an exception if its about their favorite pass time or entertainment method?

    @grimshawl I've been working for five years to tell a story, and I have to say I know how that feels to want to tell a better story. Fate Stayer was completed once, and I scrapped it because it just failed on so many quality levels. I love the characters, but because I was afraid I'd never be skilled enough to tell their tales at the level of Robert Jordan, I gave their names to two characters in my LitRPG to save their legacy. One day, I hope they see the light of day.
     
    Yuli Ban, Paul Bellow and grimshawl like this.
  14. Paul Bellow

    Paul Bellow Forum Game Master Staff Member LitRPG Author Shop Owner Citizen Aspiring Writer

    100%
    Messages:
    9,471
    Likes:
    7,372
    xp:
    5,313
    Zone:
    Midwest, US
    LitCoin:
    14,716,157
    Zorkmid:
    1,335
  15. Yuli Ban

    Yuli Ban Level 18 (Magician) LitRPG Author Citizen Aspiring Writer

    18%
    Messages:
    1,172
    Likes:
    959
    xp:
    918
    LitCoin:
    598,334
    Zorkmid:
    38
    [​IMG]
    Snahahaha! My cunning plan to corrupt the members of the LitRPG Forum is going totally according to plan! Time to activate phase 2...
    Actually publishing a novel!

    Narrator: Will the Mastermind's evil plans be thwarted by the combined forces of Procrastination, Laziness, and Perfectionism? Or will his dastardly plot to craft a LitRPG novel be wrought unto the world?
     
  16. Gryphon

    Gryphon Level 18 (Magician) LitRPG Author Citizen

    43%
    Messages:
    992
    Likes:
    1,287
    xp:
    943
    LitCoin:
    1,425,677
    Zorkmid:
    360
    Next time on Dragon Ball Z!
     
    Yuli Ban likes this.
  17. Readsalot

    Readsalot Level 13 (Assassin) Citizen

    68%
    Messages:
    379
    Likes:
    467
    xp:
    474
    Zone:
    South Africa
    LitCoin:
    2,297,670
    Zorkmid:
    245
    From what I've read I'm in the minority because I really like OP MCs. Always have, since I was a kid. There were Tarzan and Conan, of course, Remo the Destroyer... I'm the same when I'm playing games. I play for entertainment, not to struggle, so when I level up enough I go to a low-leveled just to teach all those bastiches a lesson.

    That might be why I like anime and superheroes so much and why I've fallen in love with xianxia, where the MC usually has some kind of Ancient Cultivation Technique that turns him into a martial god. The Chinese also have a very different way of looking at power, from what I've been able to establish. Personal power is valued much higher than other kinds of power and the more powerful the MC is, the more respect people have for him or her.

    I understand the Hero's Journey and the need for conflict that creates drama and tension so that suspense will build.

    But my favourite part in the series I'm currently reading is when some arrogant fool challenges the MC and the MC's response is: "Clearly, you want to die!"
     
    SmilingBlueWolf likes this.
  18. ChamomileHasANovel

    ChamomileHasANovel Level 7 (Cutpurse) Beta Reader Citizen

    76%
    Messages:
    37
    Likes:
    52
    xp:
    138
    LitCoin:
    1,166,206
    Zorkmid:
    92
    We all know which answer is supposed to be correct, but I'm skeptical whether or not the market agrees. Do people really want to read about a character growing and changing and overcoming flaws more than they want to read about a power fantasy where the protagonist overcomes everything in their path without any serious resistance?
     
  19. SmilingBlueWolf

    SmilingBlueWolf Level 9 (Burgler) Citizen Aspiring Writer

    6%
    Messages:
    53
    Likes:
    81
    xp:
    203
    LitCoin:
    997,332
    Zorkmid:
    174
    I like it too, but believe me, it grows old FAST. Especially when out of 30 novels, 29 are the same. They don't bother to do anything new: the MC meets someone, gets triggered by something stupid (and that he probably does to others all the time), proceeds to kill the person, enters a conflict with his clan/sect, either runs or wipe the sect out, rinse and repeat. And they drag it on as much as possible. If he has to walk from one side of the street to the other you can be sure it will take more than thirty chapters. I find it funny how most MC's expect everyone and their moms to give them every inch of respect as humanly possible, but they almost never respect anyone after they achieve some power.
     
    grimshawl, Dragovian and Paul Bellow like this.
  20. Dragovian

    Dragovian Over-enthusiastic Tank wtb Pocket Healer LitRPG Author Beta Reader Citizen

    36%
    Messages:
    95
    Likes:
    164
    xp:
    218
    LitCoin:
    645,608
    Zorkmid:
    127
    I think we have a better chance of the genre growing beyond the current market if we employ at least some of the techniques of more 'mainstream' fiction.

    On the other hand, I am honestly less concerned by "did the main character have a good character arc" than I am by "OMG git gud noob". I can tolerate poor life choices; I can tolerate a learning curve. I really can't tolerate ramping up the "drama" by having your character repeatedly make the same gameplay mistakes. Much like an actual game, if you keep standing in fire, I'm going to kick you and find someone else.
     
    Paul Bellow and Yuli Ban like this.




Share This Page