All things Dungeon

Discussion in 'Debates & Discussions' started by Captain BlackJack, Aug 4, 2020.

  1. Mister Bill

    Mister Bill Level 12 (Rogue) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    I really, really doubt it’s that easy. Otherwise the dungeon could take over the surface world given enough time.
     
  2. Belgared

    Belgared Level 7 (Cutpurse) Exiles Citizen

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    did the dungeon really create those areas? I thought that the chaos ray was what transformed those 3 areas.
     
  3. Captain BlackJack

    Captain BlackJack Level 15 (Guardian) Exiles Citizen

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    How did the Chaos Ray create those three areas?

    Hadn’t the chaos ray already dissipated?

    My understanding is that the Chaos ray hit the bloodstone changing it. I don’t think the chaos ray created the dungeon nor its traps. The chaotic bloodstone made a deal with Ricther for his protection for their salvation. Then it teleported everything within a specific radius back to the MV. That’s when everything was created as I understand it. The chaotic shard had already radiated its energy out some time prior giving birth to the chaotic bloodstone. Then the chaotic bloodstone created the dungeon making itself the item of power.

    I just can’t believe that the chaos shard radiating raw rays of chaos could have made the dungeon traps for a dungeon that didn’t even exist at that time.
     
  4. Dragon

    Dragon Level 18 (Magician) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    One thing worth noticing is that three of them are living things. The siren rocks, the consuming sands and the Esur Vines.

    Another is that when the chaos shard was touched it sent out dozens of rays, most of which did not leave the cavern (only 3 did). One of them struck Richter though and another the bloodstone. The remainder struck various parts of the rock, transforming it. This either created the chaotic Dungeon or it bestowed an existing Dungeon with the Power of CHAOS.

    With that in mind, and with the Dungeon sending out its call to adventure soon afterwards, its probably a safe bet it was created by the chaotic shard that also started a new age.

    Seems clear that in the immidiate aftermath of the creation of the Dungeon these were created. By the chaotic shard.

    I imagine the Dungeon will be able to create its own external defenses in time. For now it has what it was born with.
     
  5. Captain BlackJack

    Captain BlackJack Level 15 (Guardian) Exiles Citizen

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    Thanks for the quote. I didn’t remember that at all. Even so that really makes me wonder about the chaotic bloodstone. I have been under the assumption that you can’t have a proper dungeon without having an item of power.

    So going back to the original premise.

    Is the dungeon capable of replication of the dungeon traps?

    Well according to your quote the dungeon didn’t create the “dungeon traps”. The chaos shard had created the blue sands, the siren rock, and the vines by a burst of chaotic energy. Accordingly to my understanding or misunderstanding the dungeon wasn’t a Dungeon until the chaotic bloodstone created it.

    I believe the big question should be are the “dungeon traps” actually part of the dungeon?

    Do the dungeon traps feed the dungeon?

    How were the first beast added to the dungeon?

    If the siren rock, the blue sands, and the vines are not part of the dungeon how did the dungeon learn those beast they consume?

    How did dungeon gain their energies and the DP’s from their consumption?

    I find hard to conceive that the dungeon didn’t create the “dungeon traps”.

    Maybe instead of being know as dungeon traps they should have been called the dungeons thralls or slaves.

    Why and how would the sands, the vines, and the siren rock feed the dungeon? That is if they aren’t dungeon creations or should I say recreations.
     
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  6. Dragon

    Dragon Level 18 (Magician) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    The chaos shard transformed the hill into a Dungeon. Then it transformed part of the Dungeon into the siren stones, the vines and the sands.
     
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  7. Captain BlackJack

    Captain BlackJack Level 15 (Guardian) Exiles Citizen

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    It did clearly transform part of the hill to the siren rock, the blue sands, and the vines as your quote proves.

    Is there a quote saying the chaos shard turned the the hill into a dungeon?

    If it did turn the hill into a dungeon what was that dungeons item of power?

    How would the chaotic bloodstone have replaced that dungeons item of power?

    EDIT:

    The answer above still avoids the other questions. It also ignores the original premise that the Dungeon can replicate the “dungeon traps” as they are either part of the dungeon being said dungeon traps or they are not. If not then how did the dungeon learn from the “traps” when they consumed the beast?
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2021
  8. ShoughtLoud

    ShoughtLoud Level 16 (Paladin) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Comes about just a little later in book 6

    Screenshot_20210216-115747.jpg
     
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  9. Captain BlackJack

    Captain BlackJack Level 15 (Guardian) Exiles Citizen

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    The quote above were Ricthers ponderings. The quote only suggests that the traps appeared to be laid out to protect the dungeon or better yet the bloodstone.

    That isn’t the question at hand and that was only a thought Ricther had.

    It still doesn’t address the original premise.

    Can Ricthers Dungeon replicate the traps?

    It’s very clear that the “dungeon traps” are not just living things guarding the bloodstone.

    Ricther himself swore to protect the chaotic bloodstone. Does that mean if he killed and ate a chicken snake the dungeon would learn how to make them?

    I think we are all clear that when the dungeon monsters kill or eat something the dungeon can learn how to make them right?

    So if the “dungeon traps” are separate from the dungeon then how did the dungeon learn to spawn the creatures they consumed?

    I know Drags quote was clear that the raw chaos changed some of the hill into the siren rock, the blue sands, and vines.

    Shout, your quote even questions if the bloodstone had planned everything as if it wasn’t just a random chaotic event.

    Even so that has nothing to do with the Dungeon traps being part of the dungeon or separate. If the Dungeon traps are part of the dungeon why couldn’t it make new ones?
    If they aren’t part of the dungeon how did it learn to make the creatures it ate?

    I think that’s a reasonable and very simple question.
     
  10. ShoughtLoud

    ShoughtLoud Level 16 (Paladin) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    I meant that it was implied in the quote I provided that the "raw chaos was turning the caves into a Dungeon". Guess I'll just keep that kind of thing to myself :D :p

    But to follow along, I'd like to think the Dungeon could at least empower if not recreate the surrounding traps, I'm not against that line of thinking, though it might require a bit of growth before anything as aggressive as has been suggested could be accomplished

    As long as they are inside the Dungeon sure

    Technically all it questions is the active awareness of the chaotic Bloodstone to the events surrounding it. It could be that the chaos Lords intervened on the new beings behalf. Or simply the chaos ended in the new chaotic Bloodstones favor.

    Technically correct is best correct
     
  11. Dragon

    Dragon Level 18 (Magician) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    The Dungeon "overview" in book 7 refers to them as external defenses,

    I'll repeat something I said earlier in slightly different words ;)

    I think the Dungeon will be able to spawn more external defenses, but that the ones it has currently are the ones it will have access to for a while.

    While we're on the subject, Dungeons are for adventure not war. I think you can push it to a certain extent, by luring enemies into the traps and using them to cover your retreat.
     
  12. Johan

    Johan Level 17 (Theurgist) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    So having the Dungeon consume a dead body, that one or two think people find distasteful, has lead my to another feature.

    Let us say life and death magic are both unlocked in the dungeon. Create a room that when a body is brought in:
    1. Tries to resurrect the person
    2. If it does not survives the death shroud then its gone, move to step 3
    3. Casts communes with the dead person, for account password
    4. Consume the body
      1. Edit: Or cast raise dead... If loved one really miss them and is into... That sort of thing.
    5. Creates a memorial on the wall with a hologram of the person.
      1. Edit: Maybe allow a copy of enigram, like futon to continue to ask questions and teach future generations
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2021
  13. ShoughtLoud

    ShoughtLoud Level 16 (Paladin) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Room of Search History
     
  14. Johan

    Johan Level 17 (Theurgist) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Can't find a good Futurama gify gif that shows the hall of head jars or hologram memorials. Stupid gify search.

    Maybe bring the talking skull back to the core library for storage.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2021
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  15. Andrew Lynas

    Andrew Lynas Level 17 (Theurgist) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    As well as the Chaos Energy that Richter Absorbed there was the Energy that hit the Caves Walls (and so began the process of turning it into a Dungeon), the Energy Beam that hit the BloodStone (and turned it into the Chaos BloodStone) and the Energy Beams that hit the Surface area of the Goblin Outcrop/Hill (and then changed them into the Esur Vines, Siren Rock and the Consuming Sand), there was also the Chaos Energy Beam that shot up into the Sky and I strongly suspect that that Energy Beam then made it's way to Earth and hit it and so caused it to be linked to the Labyrinth.
     
  16. Captain BlackJack

    Captain BlackJack Level 15 (Guardian) Exiles Citizen

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    Once again Drag had quoted that the raw chaos changed parts of the cave. In that there is no doubt.

    Both of you have taken the point that the vines, the sands, and the rock are separate from the dungeon. Accordingly they are only defenses. Not only that but they are external they are not in the dungeon.

    So if they are not part of the dungeon then how is it that they attracted beast, killed them, consumed them, and then the dungeon learned how to make them?

    Did the dungeon not feed on those beast?

    Did it not learn how to make them?

    It seems to me something else had happened. The chaotic bloodstone seemed to know what it was doing. The book eludes to it. Yet it hasn’t all been revealed.

    The Bloodstone wasn’t totally sure of itself. It didn’t know if it would survive the transformation or if it would ever talk to Ricther again. Now it seems as if it wants to recognize Ricther. As if it should know him and know his name. In time we might learn more or Aleron could leave us hanging. Until then I will continue to believe the chaotic bloodstone knew more and had more to do with the dungeons transformation then we know.

    And I will still believe the dungeon traps are part of the dungeon until you can prove it to be different.
     
  17. Dragon

    Dragon Level 18 (Magician) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Once again, they are referred to straight up as external Dungeon defenses in the Dungeon overview. :)

    They are part of the Dungeon the same way my hand is part of me. Doesn't mean I can grow another hand, at least not without some serious research and a lot of time/ facilities/ backing/ insanity. Similarly the Dungeon in my opinion needs to grow and learn before it will be able to expand those defenses, similar to the way it gains access to more levels. They are 100% part of it.

    I expect Aleron will introduce a soft or hard cap on rooms as well once he realizes how the benefits from no-cap room building stacks.
     
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  18. Johan

    Johan Level 17 (Theurgist) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    So I read the events as thus:

    1. Chaos Beam shot out from Shard
      1. Chaos beam shot into cave walls -> made it alive -> Dungeon
      2. Chaos beam shot into rocks above -> made it alive -> Siren Rocks
      3. Chaos beam shot into ground above -> made it alive -> Blue Sands
      4. Chaos beam shot into plant above -> made it alive -> Rape Vines
      5. Chaos beam shot into blood stone -> made it alive -> Blood and Chaos stone
    2. Blood and Chaos stone cast spell to transport living creatures -> Dungeon, Rocks, Sands, and Vines all transported
    3. During Transport Spell...transportion
      1. Blood and Chaos stone combined with Dungeon as item of power
      2. Blood and Chaos stone rearranged Rocks and connected/claimed them as personal (Dungeon) defense
      3. Blood and Chaos stone rearranged Sands and connected/claimed them as personal (Dungeon) defense
      4. Blood and Chaos stone rearranged Vines and connected/claimed them as personal (Dungeon) defense
    I don't really look to deeply into this, it just makes sense to me.
     
  19. ShoughtLoud

    ShoughtLoud Level 16 (Paladin) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Like I get it, but as far as the plant is concerned it's just being efficient.
     
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  20. Johan

    Johan Level 17 (Theurgist) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    I could not remember the name of the vine and pictures of the act it uses to kill just brought that up.
     
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