Genre Pet Peeves

Second to that - regional influence on a character's personality is huge. Absolutely huge in this genre. Russian books as an example are extremely back stabby - and everything's dark and will only get darker and my best friend is the first person to gut me and bang my wife. Okay they're not all like that, but there is a far darker vibe in a lot of ways.

Translated stuff out of China is very much male centric power fantasy. So if you're reading a ton of online translated stuff with "Game elements" - get ready for women to be strong but weaker than men of the same level (despite game mechanics) - and lots of burn the peasant village and take all their grain style raiding parties.

Stuff from Japan feels anime heavy, but they go through stages where it starts as a web story, becomes a web comic, becomes a manga, becomes an anime, and so on. With each do-over the busts get bigger, fan service jumps, and unbelievable fell-on-boob scenes are added in. And the food porn, zomg.

So, while we're talking about clichés, dumb-joke bro-power stereotypes, and so on - where it comes from seems to be a heavy influence. At least, when you've read as much of this nonsense as I have...

Stuff out of the west seems to be a bit more high adventure / cow boyish - which is also a "man's genre" - where the men are real men and the women are bedpost notches. Which is an entire thing. The Die Hard movies...hell anything with Bruce Willace...eve 5th Element, which features the kickass perfect being who still needed to be saved by the ex-super soldier turned every day cab driver in the future where they have flying cars but not self driving ones...

Around these parts, adventure and get the girl is a huge story type, and always swell be - is has since Grek's started telling their stories - and even they knew a woman could stab them while they were sleeping. With a stick. In the eye.

To be honest, that's the type of story I wrote in Continue Online - along with so many other factors, but it was an adventure of self discovery and get the girl sort of tale.

 

The problem to me with that is it excuses bad behavior because it's "always been done" or "it's culture". That doesn't really make it ok. It's the same with casual racism or something; just because it's "like that" or "just the culture" doesn't make it acceptable.

I actually don't mind the MC "getting the girl" (or heck, I don't think I would mind even a harem one if the characters weren't flat barbie dolls), but I do mind them promoting a mindset that treating women as "notches on the bedpost" or something is just "how it is". The same with treating other sexualities like they're a contagious disease, a weakness, or 'gross'. It doesn't have to be that way and it shouldn't be. I understand it can take a while for people to learn, but shrugging it off because "oh, it's just their culture/mindset" sends the passive message that it's fine. That they can keep on doing it and people won't mind.

I'm not saying break out the torches and pitchforks, but I do think it's important to tell authors "hey, this kind of stuff isn't ok/endearing/acceptable" in terms of the treatment of women, minorities, or other sexualities. I have exactly zero problems with the straight male MC getting his love interest, but I do want him to do it in a way that isn't insulting to her or treating her like she has less of a brain just because she has boobs or something.

 

Without diving into the wider world of telling other people what to think - my main statement is that certain types of behavior are more common within certain regions of the world. Okay or not. For readers, the strongest way to get peevish actions to stop, is to speak with a wallet.

What I do notice, is that a huge number of books with these pet peeves being mention, are still making large sales. Essentially the crowd is reinforcing the behavior. So, I'd like to pivot to the problem itself rather than symptoms and degrees of the problem. Which is to say, how do you stop writers from including these sorts of trite trope filled annoyances in a novel when it results in money? Can a single person do more than leave reviews and not buy further works? Even better, can an author do that without stabbing themselves in the foot?

Let's use The Land. Like or hate it, it's popular. It has a huge fan base. If I came out and said "zomg wut garbage" in a public forum, I'd be burned at the stake. People who have tried reasonable discourse to tear it apart for legit reasons, have been burned at the stake and removed from the Facebook group. Where as I, as an author, can see why readers like it, admire success, and still think the story is meandering with no concise goal or plot in mind - which is another peeve someone mentioned back there - and this same issue was brought up in a facebook group - not for The Land specifically, but for LitRPG/GameLit/Whatever in general - unfocused over plots.

So back to the question, how does an author, or a reader, help fix this aside from a review and not buying other works - without being burned at the stake? Or can we?

 

I think it's less "telling people want to think" and more explaining what is socially acceptable. Being "socially acceptable" is literally a part of humanity and has been for thousands of years. You learned how to treat the rest of the tribe properly, or you were punished/cast out/whatever. I would agree if it was demanding characters all be a certain sexuality or demanding people like the color neon green, but this is strictly saying "treating half of our society like a blow-up doll for your pleasure isn't cool, man". I don't think that's telling them what to think in the slightest. I think that's telling them if they think that, it's unacceptable and don't expect people to just nod and smile about it. That they can do it if they want, but it's not going to be welcomed. No one can change their minds for them, but they can sure as heck not accept it as "just fine" either.

The Land's both a good and bad example. It's "good" in that, yes, it has a lot of the pet peeves. It's bad because it's apples and oranges with 90% of the LitRPG genre out there. Most authors don't have near-cult status or the money to throw at advertising, etc. that that particular author has. The really sad part is I noticed in later books, he was trying to be a bit more...acceptable, but he just did it in incredibly clumsy ways that were just as insulting as the blatant sexism/homophobia. Like kudos for trying, but he just missed the mark rather badly. He also slid back into it as he went along because people kept patting him on the back. His ego is enormous and only increasing it seems.

The thing is LitRPG is still a rather small genre and I honestly think that the problem is there because the options are relatively few. It's growing, but it does not have near the vast options many other genres do. If people want to read it and that's all there is to buy, a lot of them will just suck it up and buy it, even if it annoys them. I know I have that problem with things like the "Super Special Chosen One". If I want to read LitRPG, no matter how hard I search, 9 times out of 10, the book is going to involve that same old trope. So I suck it up and try and enjoy other parts of the story. If I had other options, I'd be giving those books my money/support. Admittedly, perhaps not the best way to handle it, but I'm sure I'm far from the only person to bend a little when they can't find exactly what they want.

And really, I think that's the answer. Discussions like this with authors that are open to it on forums and in betas. Telling them that "hey, why not break away from this trope and try something better?". Explaining that the book doesn't really need/benefit from including that kind of thing. That it might open more doors than it shuts, which I think is true.

Basically, we need people to do what RJ Castiglione did with the Fjorgyn series. He couldn't find LitRPG with a male/male romance so he wrote one. We need writers to be willing to write books without those tropes and problems to give people at least the option to buy something different. Because currently it's very, very hard to find.

 

I think that LitRPG/GameLit needs to look beyond itself and stop competing within the genre, but with mainstream fantasy/sci-fi. I think we still have a quality problem, and if we don't fix that quality problem, it's going to stay a very niche genre, which means smaller reader pool and that means writers feel the need to stay 'safe'.

And this whole egg-shell thing with being afraid to offend 'powerful' authors really pisses me off. Do we live under a communist regime or something? Why must authors be afraid? In a way, I can understand why someone can go: "I'm here first! You copy-cat ingrates should know your places!" It's human. It's perfectly understandable. But... really, do you really love the genre if you do that? Encouragement is good. But, really, I think people should be allowed to be 100% honest in their opinions -- authors, readers alike. That's just human integrity. What happened to free speech? Shouldn't, well, American LitRPG be a champion of free speech? Yeah, in China they have 'free speech', too, but if you say anything critical of the Great Chairman Mao, you get torn to bits by angry brainwashed crowds that demand you lose your job. Is that free speech? I mean, why the heck is the LitRPG world so backwards?

And then there's this whole issue of artists critiquing other artists. Opinions vary. But I think that people should just be honest. There's a way to be honest and kind, and there's a way to be honest and mean. Honest and kind is always good. You might not want to hear it, but it's good for you.

Sorry. I'm ranting here.

 

To make it worse Re: 2018 99% of the technology based stories take place in at least 2040 if not later to account for the advancements in technology to make the story possible.

Another peve that goes hand in hand with setting and pop references is when the MC obsesses over modern pop culture that, quite frankly, doesn't make sense for them to have been exposed to.

I don't mind gaming jokes and the like, but they need to be presented in a way that the characters are none the wiser. WoW joke the hell out of your story, it's all good, as long as a character doesn't become aware that it's from WoW.... because that'd be like a modern teen laughing over some Atari Missile Commander humor.
Best way to handle this IMO is parody. Set something up to resemble a famous situation, that the characters are totally unaware of. Poke fun at and have fun with it. I did this in my first book Re: Leroy Jenkins. (I had Leroy Jensen... or rather his fanclub... Leroy himself didn't make it to the story).

Re: Music and Pop Culture - Non Parody

Yesterday while writing , I decided to do the exact opposite, by introducing a few modern/old (Even by our standards) songs, that are nevertheless popular and have my most people be like "Never heard of it... Why? Because she has about the same chance of obsessing over stuff from the 1990-2010s as I do gobbling up songs from the 1930s-1950s.

I have my game set up so that musician characters who don't have any real world musical abilities can choose songs from a playlist and the game will move their hands through the motions according to their skill. Songs from 30-40+ years ago are free, but modern pop from my world costs a fee on par with buying the sheet music.

Example (Playing a Renaissance Lute):

"He nods and plays, a gentle song I haven't heard before. I inspect him and discover it's called "Nothing Else Matters" by some band called Metallica from the early 1990s. So old. I wonder if all their songs are so peaceful. Cerberus lays down on his stomach, and gets a dreamy expression on all three of his faces."

 

Pop culture references are virtual flashes in the pan. Once the reference becomes dated, so does the work it's based on. And that's why I always counsel against them when I'm editing - sure, they may be hilarious, they may be situationally perfect, and they may even be the pivotal turning point of your entire story, but if you overuse them, then your story has a shelf life and it will not pass the test of time.

Think about it this way: how many kids these days have actually SEEN an 8-track cassette tape? Or how about reel-to-reel tape drives, or magnetic zip drives? What are the chances that, outside of enthusiasts, anyone will even know what they were as short as five years from now? How about a telephone from the 1920s, or a switchboard? And we're to expect that the kids in 2040 and beyond are so hipster that they've dug up these sorts of references to use as humor? If you look at things that have stood the test of time, the only thing you'll find them referencing is themselves. Sure, the attitudes of the day are represented (Victorian era romance novels, for instance), but the truly timeless works will be those that are lacking outside references entirely.

As far as sociopathy is concerned, much like the One True Savior complex mentioned upthread, I have to wonder if it's some sort of genre convention that links back to video gaming, and the roots of it all. There's a common term for player characters in a D&D campaign: Murder Hobos, meaning that the players behind the PC will often treat the game in terms of "gee, it moves! I want to kill it and take all of its stuff!" And thanks to the way an experience point system works, that sort of behavior is rewarded by allowing the players to move on and kill more stuff for its belongings. It's a skinner box, basically.

Sexism, racism, and homophobia are tough ones to tackle. On the one hand, yeah, to our sensibilities, it's terrible and should be stamped out. But on the other hand, it really is just The Way Things Work™ in the author's day to day life in their society. And we shouldn't be too quick to judge another society through the distorted lens of our own, but rather, we should seek to understand the differences. Just like the Victorian sensibilities in Victorian era romance novels, we have to take things in the context of the society that produced them and accept that, until the society itself shifts, that's simply something that's going to be represented as commonplace in the literature produced by authors who were raised in that environment.

That shift is already happening, but it's a generational change and isn't going to come swiftly. The internet has made the world a much smaller place, for better or worse, and cultural cross-contamination is inevitable; but that's a topic for another subject entirely.

 

This is why I tend to feel that the best pop-culture jokes are staged in such a way that people who are completely unfamiliar with the original source material will be unaware that they are there.

I kind of see three levels of obfusication from people who aren't familiar with whatever you are referencing:
#1 - Not at all - This is obviously a joke about a subject that's been announced, and I'm completely unfamiliar with it so I don't think it's funny.

#2 - I feel like someone just made an inside joke that I'm not part of..... What am I missing?

#3 - Oh, that was a pop culture reference? I didn't even notice.

 

While I get what you're saying, I'm not talking about the fictional races created in a world. I'm not even talking about Russian LitRPG authors. I've seen a ton of American LitRPG authors that include casual misogyny and homophobia in their stories as if it's funny or something that makes the main character relatable or endearing. They really don't have the same excuse. I don't think it's a good idea to act like it's acceptable because "oh, they're from the South and it's just--" because I'm from the South. And the ladies in my family (mother, grandmother, etc.) would slap the taste out of my mouth if I acted like that.

The problem with saying "oh, it's just how they are" in terms of Russian/Chinese/etc. writers for me is...why would they shift if we reward them for that kind of writing? Why bother to change if no one stops and goes "hey, I don't think that kind of stuff is acceptable and I'm not going to read books that include it". Granted, the fact that LitRPG is still a very small genre compared to others makes the choices more limited, but even so... There are several authors I don't support because of that, even if their books get great reviews. Especially if the reviews include 'great except for xyz' and it's something racist/homophobic/sexist.

Heck, after this conversation, I decided that even if I can get the next 'Land' book on KU, I won't. Granted, I'm sure the author won't suffer horribly from lacking my $2 or whatever he could get from it, but the point is...I know how that author writes and how his character behaves and that the book includes a bunch of sexist bullcrap and rape scenes. So I won't be giving him even those $2. Because people are right. If we keep rewarding them for writing like that, they have no reason to change.

 

I've sworn off some popular American/Native English speaking authors simply because of the way they portray women. This isn't even a wholly SJW issue, It's a matter of preference. I don't like books where half the population (male or female) are treated like decorative objects. Some D&D Drow fiction put me off for the same reasons.

 

It depends on how it's handled. I can usually tell if something is a pop culture reference because authors can't usually just reference something without ramming it in your face like "SEE WHAT I DID THERE? I AM MAKING A RELEVANT JOKE!"

Even if I don't get the reference, I can still pick up on it being there.

And Wyvern, it's not necessarily an author thing. It's because we are all, every single one of us, a product of our environment. If an American author chooses to be ignorant, then yeah, I get it. That's not what I like to see from a product of the culture that I grew up in (or am living in, considering that I predate even the cordless telephone, so the culture I grew up in is wildly different than the culture I live in now. The joys of a transitional period, I suppose), so I'm not going to support it.

However, I am also not going to judge someone who comes from a completely different culture based on my own views. I've got twelve completely filled passports because I enjoy immersing myself in other cultures - the good, the bad, and the ugly - and I've learned over the decades that applying my own personal standards to another country is a recipe for epic failure.

The biggest incident of culture shock I can remember came from when I was stationed in Germany. I was sitting in a German military hospital recovering from an injury I got on deployment (and the surgery to fix it), and it was a Sunday morning at about 8:30AM. I turned on the television, to what in the US would be referred to as broadcast cable (think channels 2-13, or the local affiliate channels on whatever cable package you may or may not have), and saw a game show with a giant bouncing pair of boobs on screen. Completely uncensored, and part of a game show where the host would bring audience members up to try and guess the combination of some cheesy combination lock graphics over the boobs, so that the audience at home could enjoy the visual. And yeah, there were prizes, too.

For some reason, that was the epitome of culture shock for me. That, more than any other experience, brought home just how alien other cultures are. And it seems silly, because I've been so many places and seen so many strange and alien things, but that one incident just brought home that no matter how familiar a culture is, other cultures are still just alien to my personal sensibilities.

So I don't judge things based on cultural differences. Do I still find some things abhorrent? Of course I do - but I would rather work to change the culture that produces the abhorrent behaviors and thoughts than do what medical professionals call "treating the symptom, and not the disease."

 

Okay, not to be argumentative, but how does one "fix the culture" by supporting the unpleasant products? How am I helping anything by giving them money and rewarding them for continuing to do the same things? This isn't me judging their religion or taste in food, but their basic treatment of other human beings and displaying it as appropriate and even admirable. Going "oh, that's just the way it is" doesn't fix anything. It doesn't treat the disease or the symptoms. It just enables them to keep on going.

There's a large difference between going "this culture is inferior to mine" which I would never do, and going "this person is marketing to America and making money off it while writing this kind of stuff that is incredibly offensive to more than half the population". I see zero reason to just shrug it off as an [insert culture] thing and continue to pay them for that sort of behavior. Again, I don't think that does anything to help the culture or to show that sort of thing is offensive. In a way, I think it's a tad insulting to the authors; it sort of implies they're unable to grow, learn, or write differently/better than that. That since "well, they're Russian/Chinese/whatever that's just how they're going to be because of the culture". People can always learn and I would hope that authors who want to sell their books, please their readers, and continue to do well would want to know that they're hurting themselves with that sort of behavior.

Again, not trying to be rude or anything, but I'm confused how just going "well, it's their culture, they don't know any better" is going to help the situation, improve the genre, or enable the next generation of books to be better than the current ones.

 

In the case of the Russians writing this stuff and American gobbling it up, I think there's a big case of people simply not having a lot of other options. They were among the first to have entire series released, and people who wanted LitRPG/GameLit were attracted to that. This is how they got a head start on the US/UK/Canadian/Australian writers.

Now we have more native English speakers writing, and time will differentiate the leaders of the pack. As more and more authors release series to compete with the Russians, I think we'll see a shift away from people gobbling up everything they put out. As for people choosing what English speaking authors to support, you're exactly right. There's absolutely no reason to continue pumping money into products that are unenjoyable.

 

It's like this - voting with your wallet, when it only affects a single individual, isn't going to change the culture. Working with groups like the Peace Corps, or other NGOs focused on women's rights or minority rights, on the other hand, will. Simply avoiding buying a book from an author because it was influenced by a culture that has aspects you disagree with isn't going to do anything. The author honestly doesn't know who you are, nor does he or she (and let's be honest here, it's always "he") really care about one person's opinion. The only time voting with wallets works is in the aggregate, or if you have some cachet with the person or organization you're upset by.

Otherwise you're cutting off your nose to spite your face, because while you may not enjoy one element of his book, the rest of it could quite probably be something that you do enjoy. If that one element is a dealbreaker for you, then, by all means, avoid it. But if you want to treat the disease, rather than the symptoms, then go do something about it.

And yeah, Jun - the genre is still comparatively tiny. So fans will gobble up any garbage put out with a LitRPG tag, because the choices are still relatively slim.

 

That's...not exactly the most practical advice, nor does it actually help with the writing of the genre. Also, I don't assume 99% of people can just drop everything to join the Peace Corps to "fix a culture". Which I'm honestly really sure that would do it since a lot of cultures resent the Peace Corps and other similar organizations as interfering, etc. The advice to just ignore the problems with the genre and continue giving them money certainly isn't going to change anything. And honestly, I'd rather give my money to writers who I can enjoy without all the crap instead of just going "well, some of the book is okay if I ignore the racism/sexism/homophobia/rape/etc."

And that was kind of my point? Yes, one person going "I won't buy" probably isn't going to make a huge difference, but if more people actually speak up, review, and otherwise let authors know, that's definitely going to do something. Maybe not tomorrow, but they will certainly notice if enough people care. I guess it's not "doing something about it" on a huge scale of giving up my life to go to another country, true, but I still personally think it's doing something. And it's doing something on a level that's far more realistic for most people.

Do I wish I had thousands or millions of dollars to put toward "fixing the world"? Sure. But let's be honest, most of us probably live paycheck-to-paycheck or close to it. So we can't just do that. We have to do what we can with what we have. And I don't think the answer is just ignoring the genre or continuing to give it money. Because yes, my $2 may not make a HUGE difference, but if enough people go "I don't like this, so you don't get my $2" most writers are going to notice. If it wasn't that big a deal, the whole debacle with KU and the scammers wouldn't have so many authors upset or freaking out because of losing those reads (which I get they shouldn't have had since the accounts were illegal, but point is, even losing 25-50 is noticeable for most authors).

And if fans actually speak up and stop accepting the "garbage" so easily, the authors who want to keep making money are going to catch up or get left behind by newer authors who produce something better. It will take a little time, sure, but it's not impossible.

 

I have a confession, last night I read this entire thread and made a sort of mental tick-list that made me pretty happy for my current WIP. I really love that people share soooo many of the same pet-peeves I do. One or two drops in the well I can ignore, for the most, but sometimes people hit every branch in the peeve-tree and I want to scream.

But I also think a lot of these is just the basic desire for good story-telling regardless of genre:
-Strong, well developed characters that are empathetic without relying on cheap sympathy
-Plots that are going somewhere.
-Characters solving problems and overcoming obstacles, not pressing the deus ex button to fix them
-Characters that are good because they are talented and skilled, not because they are lucky and special/chosen one.

My personal pet-peeves are a little less genre specific:
-Prologues that shouldn't exist/don't advance the plot
-The word prophecy. Even a sniff of this word and I'm likely to put a book through a window. (Why is this even in ostensibly a sci-fi genre?)

 

Actually, you can volunteer at home, too. There are plenty of NGOs that need volunteers in support positions at home as well as abroad, that won't require you to go somewhere else. And as far as joining the Peace Corps, specifically, is concerned, while you're in it your room and board is paid, along with your flights to and from where you're going, plus a monthly stipend while you're there, and they even continue paying you for a short time after you're done, to give you time to get your feet under you. It also looks damn good on any given resume. And from my own experiences working with NGOs, you're not seen as "a meddler" when you go places.

But that's neither here nor there. If you don't like something, don't read it. If enough people make that decision, then it'll start to matter; but, realistically speaking? It's not going to happen. There are too many fans of the genre willing to read EVERYTHING in the genre, because the choices are so limited right now. And even though the number of authors putting up new books is going up, there's still the benefit of being first to market that you have to consider, as well as the absolute unwillingness of people to actually participate in fixing a problem compared to just complaining about the problem's existence.

I don't see this conversation going anywhere positive, so I'm exiting here.

 

Guys, this is how we do it practically

Grow the genre - this is happening. But we need more quality books. As a girl who reads 'guy' genres, I put up with a lot of sexist crap when I was younger, because I didn't have a choice. Not anymore, though. Heck, most people still put up with sexist crap now. I die a little whenever I see a teenage girl defending A Song of Ice and Fire and praising it for its 'realistic' portrayal of human nature. No wonder we have this concept of "rape culture". Ugh. Art influences society. You put some idea in someone's head long enough, it starts to become their reality. I'm all for freedom of expression, and people can express whatever they want to express, but everything needs to be properly tagged. (which brings me to the next point)

A proper database with labels/tags - GreatLitRPG has the right idea. LitRPGReads also has the right idea. But we need detailed filterable tags. "Harem" "OP" "NSFW" -- and maybe the spirit of the book as well, like, off the top of my head, 'ambiguous morality', 'heroic', grimdark, noblebright, fantasy, sci-fi, roguelike, world-jumping, wish-fulfillment, VRMMORPG, high-stakes, low-stakes, and whatnot. So readers coming in from wherever can actually find books they will enjoy.

Quality guides/reviews -
I don't know who the folks at gamelitcrit are, but they put up reviews. And the second one was a book that was called out by every one of their reviewers for its racist attitude and given a low score. Now, since about five people called it racist, I'm not going to touch the book. That is the power of consolidated reviews.
We need a place to collect all these quality, thoughtful reviews. Reddit posts come and go and are voted on 'popularity', which doesn't mean quality. We need somewhere people can freely express their views without repercussion. I really want there to be a truly neutral 'review congregation site' where I have an account, I can 'follow' certain reviewers, I can filter a personal recommendation list tallied from scores given by either 'only reviewers I follow' or 'everybody'. Actually, I want a site like that for all scifi/fantasy books out there, but I know it's probably too huge a project even to think about.
Also, where is that "List of LitRPGs where female characters are afforded proper human dignity -- approved by female readers"? Where is that list for "MC is totally not a psychopath"? And the list for "Safe for 13-year-olds in terms of language, sex, and morality"?
And we need people who write regular thoughtful reviews. Now there are only a few distinct voices in the community. We need more. The voices shouldn't even agree. That's the beauty of conversation. But this means committing to the genre and freaking sticking your neck out there. It's too much to ask of an author.

 

I completely agree and that's sort of what I was saying. Or at least trying to say.

That we need a way to get good works out and stop rewarding the ones that have the offensive or derogatory content. Good, honest reviews is definitely something I support. A collection or guide is also a really good idea.