Growing the Dungeon

Discussion in 'Debates & Discussions' started by PokemonThug, Aug 31, 2021.

  1. Captain BlackJack

    Captain BlackJack Level 16 (Paladin) Exiles Citizen

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    Does it say somewhere that the earlier Kingdom was a bigoted, Human only, militaristic, expansionist empire ran by conservatives?

    What makes you feel that way?

    All I have gathered is that racism is somewhat new in Yves. I don’t recall any historical references to that type Ideology in Yves.
     
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  2. Dragon

    Dragon Level 19 (Enchanter) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    So Aleron can't possibly be using the universal definition of conservative used throughout fiction? I think you are reading too much political standpoint into the word conservative in this context when Aleron probably means they are stodgy old men who dislike change and love power.

    Modern conservatives might be a little racist at times - heaven knows i've taken myself in uncharitable thinking multiple times when it comes to immigrants - but they aren't working to reintroduce slavery or destroy even the most basic rights of minorities. These people are conservative in the fashion of an islamic extremist or a kkk member. Now can we drop the idea that me or Aleron is out to swarth you with some kind political brush now? Its getting tiresome, you are reading things into what i'm saying that just aren't there.

    I agree there is a strong element of american history in Aleron's writing, especially in the way Yvesians treat the nonhuman natives. The poachers and the way they treat Sion and his bloodbrother seem to be inspired by south american poachers killing off natives in the amazon.


    You know Antifa calls themselves anti-fascist right? Some of them might be that given how little structure they have, but the violent groups that dominate the movement are anything but ant-fascist. Its a word they adapt because it sends a signal. Same with the nazies adapting socialism as part of the name for their movement, it was a useful piece of fluff. Politically they had very few elements of socialism, on the contrary they were a fascist movement that persecuted socialists and communists ruthlessly within germany, doing everything they could to stomp out those movements.

    That's not a defense of socialism by the way, government controlled economies do not work in the real world and they have a tendency to end badly.
     
  3. Dragon

    Dragon Level 19 (Enchanter) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    They were a militaristic powerhouse that conquered other nations. That is well established. It is in that context I find this quote interesting

    Because it seems to imply yvesians, whether human or nonhuman, aren't welcome in the neighboring regions.

    I think Yves used to be an expansionist power that conquered its nonhuman neighbors, using the Dungeon in Law to train warriors and earn money to fuel its wars of conquest. I also think the kingdom would have been pretty racist towards nonhumans, after all they used to be enemy populations and could not be trusted.
     
  4. Gurston

    Gurston Level 9 (Burgler) Exiles Citizen

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    They didn’t specifically conquer nonhumans, I can’t remember exactly but didn't Randy say there as a mercenary war-leader who conquered the location with the dungeon of law set up a capitol and started expanding. It didn't matter the species of the conquests. He just said the human first thing was recent change to the Kingdom with the new king (which does mean conservative is the wrong term for the slaver faction as this is new not maintaining the old ways)

    Granted the fact that the nobility was human implies a more human centric society. We don’t really have enough information. It could have been a conquest to unify nearby human cities, with immigration of other species over the years until a thousand years later a new king exile worshiping mate convinces him to make rules against non-humans so he could sacrifice
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2021
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  5. Dragon

    Dragon Level 19 (Enchanter) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    It did have a tolerant period, we know all races travelled freely 10 years earlier. Its a thousand year old kingdom though so it could have gone through many political changes back and forth.

    But I agree, no conclusive evidence that it was a racist state. It is merely a theory that some of the kings advisors see an advantage in undermining the status of nonhumans and making war upon the kingdom's neighbors, making callbacks to old glories as justification, while also being stuffy traditionalists. As the men and women closest to the throne, they would be likely to receive new lands, treasures and resources seized from the conquered.
     
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  6. Captain BlackJack

    Captain BlackJack Level 16 (Paladin) Exiles Citizen

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    I totally agree!!

    I would also add that just because Terrod wouldn’t move “his” people out to the wildernesses doesn’t mean anything besides what it says. There were monsters and unknown tribes that were known to attack and kill other groups they possible consider invaders. That doesn’t mean they would attack a mixed group of races leaving Yves because prior rulers of Yves were racist human only types. I just can not see the logic in that. I can see them defending their lands like all normal indigenous peoples.
     
  7. Captain BlackJack

    Captain BlackJack Level 16 (Paladin) Exiles Citizen

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    You are right the Kingdom is very old and it has definitely had many different types of leadership. However it is possible that there were human only racist prior there isn’t anything in the previous books that would prove that.

    We do know that prior to Randy’s nephew becoming king everyone lived together openly and freely. Just because the new king made changes some ten years back doesn’t give us any aspects to how long the races lived freely before him. They could have lived in harmony throughout history until Randy’s nephew came to power.

    I haven’t seen anything in the series that shows “callbacks to Ole glories as justification to make war against nonhumans” while also being stuffy “traditionalist” aka conservatives wink wink nudge nudge.

    If this theory was true wouldn’t Yves be in some sort of war right now? Because accordingly to the theory those types are in power right? Instead we have seen the opposite. We know that Yves has historically been known for making war with other nations. Yet Randy’s “cowardly” nephew doesn’t even like adventuring. Knowing that I don’t think he would be much at making war with anyone.
     
  8. Dragon

    Dragon Level 19 (Enchanter) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Conservative is a commonly used descriptor in fiction to mean someone who holds traditional cultural views. In the context of a fictional feudal kingdom it is clearly not meant to be a reference to a modern political party or movement. Nor does anything Aleron has said indicate that it is meant as a reference to a modern political party or movement, which makes sense as a large portion of his fanbase is conservative.

    I have replied in good faith thus far but you seem determined to interpret anything I say as being about modern american conservatives something no one, no one whatsoever, seems to be seeing other than you.

    To be frank I find that deeply offensive. You are well aware that if I want to critisize someone or something, I don't hide behind a descriptor in a book meant to imply stuffy, oldfashioned, traditionalist noble scumbag. I say my opinion in a polite but non too-gentle fashion. I've certainly done so often enough.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2021
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  9. Dragon

    Dragon Level 19 (Enchanter) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    I've been quite clear that I think the kingdom of Yves is preparing for a new series of expansion wars, with the seeding of anti-nonhuman sentiment in Yves being a deliberate strategy to prepare the populace to more easily accept the ongoing events. Its possible this is partnered with genuine belief in human superiority rather than being lip service though. A process that is still ongoing even as other projects move forward.

    Randy's nephew seems to be a physical coward, but so are many politicians. He won't be fighting on the frontlines and so is likely fine with ordering others to fight. The kingdom's generals, mages. adventurers and common soldiers will take the risks and do the dying.
     
  10. Mister Bill

    Mister Bill Level 14 (Defender) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Just FYI, it has been shown that in the US it isn’t the conservatives that tend to be racist. It’s the woke leftist folks. Studies regularly show that they talk down to minorities and seek to treat them differently based on the color of their skin, i.e. racism.
     
  11. Dragon

    Dragon Level 19 (Enchanter) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Normally I would ask to see those studies as it seems unlikely that the democrats are more racist than the republicans.

    But that's just another distraction. Neither party is particularly racist, they are xenophobic meaning they are afraid which is an entirely different thing. Racism is based in hatred towards and/ or deep disdain towards the other, foreigners, jews, muslims, etc..

    There are very few americans or europeans in positiions of power or just in general, who feel unreasoning hatred based on skin color or ethnicity, we're well past that point (I know there are a handful of loons in the us congress, but out of several hundred politicians I can think of 2 racists offhand, one democrat and one republican). Fear yes, sometimes anger, but not hatred and disdain. That's on the fringes in even the most conservative or liberal western countries.

    Its a little like the discussion on poverty. We keep adjusting the bar upwards for what we consider poor/ racist, and so it seems that the needle hasn't moved. But if we look at what people were doing to each other in the early half of the nineteenth century, how the poor were treated, how the mentally sick were experimented on or forcefully sterilized, how prisoners were treated as slaves, how minorities were abused, persecuted, murdered without repercusion and compare to now, there is no question we have taken many great strides forward. Its never obvious in the moment, but take a step back and get some perspective. Things are looking up.
     
  12. Captain BlackJack

    Captain BlackJack Level 16 (Paladin) Exiles Citizen

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    This is an article you should look at Drag.

    Historically, Democrats have been more racist

    You should also look up Margret Sanger.
    Remove statues of Margaret Sanger, Planned Parenthood founder tied to eugenics and racism
     
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  13. Mister Bill

    Mister Bill Level 14 (Defender) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...n-they-speak-black-people-new-study-contends/

    Plus, just talk to a European about gypsies. You’ll see the racism jump right out. And, yeah, thankfully outright racism is often only on the margins. Unfortunately “reverse” racism is very present and some people have decided to reinvent the definition of racism so only white people can be racist.
    I absolutely agree on the consideration of what poverty means. Poor people in the US have way more than middle class people not long ago and rich people a ways back. Perspective is definitely key to being a bit happier, hopefully.
     
  14. Dragon

    Dragon Level 19 (Enchanter) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Dumping yourself down when you speak to black people probably is a form of racism, but its mostly prejudice. I doubt there is much hatred.

    Racism is what the nazies, the worst of the colonials and so on believed in. The belief that the white race, or any race really, is inherently superior and have the right to do as they please. https://www.crer.scot/what-is-racism

    It really isn't a word people should throw around the way they do. You can be plenty prejudiced without being racist..


    I know some people really don't like gypsies, its an unfortunate legacy. Plus there being some very, very horrific stories occasionally keeps the pot boiling along. Still go back a century, and the gypsies were treated as subhuman animals forced to live on the fringes of society in many places. Today they are merely disliked.
     
  15. ShoughtLoud

    ShoughtLoud Level 17 (Theurgist) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Any chance y'all could take this into private messages?
     
  16. Captain BlackJack

    Captain BlackJack Level 16 (Paladin) Exiles Citizen

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    It is getting old.

    Very old.

    Everything here should be story related and I am ready for the story to continue!!!!

    AK please give us a new book!

    Maybe I should make this clear. Give us a new book in The Land Series!

    How long must we wait to see Ricther free the non humans? I pray the next books immigrants have some key information that urges Ricther to act. I’m really tired of all the hanging quest.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2021
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  17. Dragon

    Dragon Level 19 (Enchanter) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Wow that woman had some sick ideas. Looked her up on wiki and followed a couple links.

    I agree, throw down the statue, or in the interest of preserving history, move it to a place where it can be viewed in proper historical context. Along with the statues of other proponents of negative eugenics, slavery, and racism. This shouldn't be a matter of party, these are people that should be remembered for their terrible actions and/or sick beliefs, not put up in places of glory.

    Then perhaps replace those statues with some of the many, many unsung heroes that ran the underground railroads putting their lives at risk without hope of payment or made scientific breakthroughs or did other great things in the US south, so this part of history remains a living part of the tapestry. US history is filled with great men and women, that are far more deserving of being glorified than Margaret Sanger and her ilk.

    I'll also add this: Anyone who supports negative eugenics is a piece of garbage. I don't care who they are, that is some sick sick that belongs squarely in the early twentieth century.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2021
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  18. Dragon

    Dragon Level 19 (Enchanter) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Six-seven books would be my guess.

    He needs another book at least to round off Richter's underground adventures. I have a feeling it might be two books, with Richter either getting control of the Ogre lords city at the end or at least building a significant force while learning a ton about how other chaos seeds are doing.

    Richter is headed for the big city, which likely means another place of power - as we've discussed on earlier occasions food production is hard underground, but less so with a pop to fuel it - and a bunch of races.

    I'll say this, i'm hoping for a real rough place where a number of bands from various races live together under the grossly unstable rule of the ogre lord. A lawless city ruled by the biggest fist without even a pretense of law and order, that serves as a hotbed of slavery, the worst of vices that most thieves guilds would go out of their way to stomp out, a trade hub and a neutral diplomatic center for the nearby evil races such as druegar, gnolls and drow. Possibly even a few eldritch practitioners in the service of the lawless Tyrant.

    A place Richter can bring down, free thousands and fuel the next stage in his development without increasing his array of big enemies. A self contained adventure that brings much needed blood for the village, along with treasure.

    Has anyone considered the possibility of the ogre lord having chaos seeds in his service?
     
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  19. PokemonThug

    PokemonThug Level 17 (Theurgist) Roleplaying Exiles Beta Reader Citizen Aspiring Writer

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    Antifa is quite well organized, and funded. They might gift ppl $ to burn down objects. antifa is political
    Funded through non profit orgs(from liberal regime) & have extremely strong roots in universities & education system(easy way to get a minions). Trump was an idiot.. he was always fighting a war. He just did'n knew where to hit them back.

    Conservatines in Yves should be the liberals who like everybody and every race has equal rights. Nonconservatives/ new regime(king/Count stonic/ plague squad) is the liberals who want to exterminate other races.
    Conservatives are those who have had the same traditions for centuries.. its only changing now with new king.

    we should move this away lol we do have a disagreements forum!!!
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2021
  20. Dragon

    Dragon Level 19 (Enchanter) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Just let it go already, so we can move on. There are no liberals or conservatives as such in Yves, so can we please just accept that when Aleron says they are conservative advisors he means oldfashioned, pigheaded, nobles with way too high thoughts about themselves, instead of a political alignment that doesn't exist in a medieval kingdom and leave it at that?

    For the record I agree that if they have been tolerant for the entirety of Randy's life - which seems reasonably certain, he might not be able to inherit as a half undine, but he seems to have been otherwise treated fairly for a bastard - that would mean most humans alive great-grandfathers would have grown up in a society open to nonhumans, aka the traditional, conservative view would be tolerance.

    The king and his new men would then be the liberals, the ones breaking with tradition. But there is no way Aleron thought that far.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2021




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