Taxing the adventurers blind or not worth it?

Discussion in 'Debates & Discussions' started by Dragon, Mar 4, 2021.

  1. Dragon

    Dragon Level 19 (Enchanter) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    I agree undercutting the Dungeon in Law and the other Yvesian Dungeons is a priority.

    Frankly that's not an issue though. Currently the Yvesian king takes half of the loot at the exit to the Dungeon. The Yvesian Adventurers guild takes 25 % of what remains. At the same time adventurers in Yves also have to pay taxes, which for a level 5 kingdom with a level 5 - 6 townhall means he can tax 25-30% without taking a penalty. To make it clear how much adventurers are effectively being taxed, lets say an adventurer earns 100 gold over the course of a year in loot and cash.

    The king takes half (50 gold) as an entrance fee, the guild takes a quarter of the remainder(12 gold and 5 silver) and the personal income tax is almost certainly at least another 25% (12.5 gold) as the king should be able to raise it that high with no penalties. I wouldn't be surprised if the king is willing to take half penalty, if so the tax-rate could be all the way up to 50% on all income (25 gold). This leaves the adventurer 12.5 - 25 gold, or an effective tax rate of 75+%.

    I meant it when I said a 60% tax cap for the village would be seen as generous. Especially if free healing and other facilities are provided to guild members in good standing.
     
  2. Dragon

    Dragon Level 19 (Enchanter) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    As for the guild, i'd have Richter set up an independent organisation with a royal charter detailing their rights and duties in regards to their king and country. Minimum support standards for members would also be laid out, with each founding member owning a share.

    As for the initial facilities, the Crown would support them as a loan, to be repaid over say 5 years. After which i'd pull back and allow this new business to operate as it sees fit, at least as long as it turns a taxable profit.
     
  3. Mister Bill

    Mister Bill Level 12 (Rogue) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    No way. That wouldn’t work for the people who like money. Why push harder to level up when the company gets all of the profits and you share what everyone has looted? Just do the bare minimum and profit off of others’ success.
     
  4. Mister Bill

    Mister Bill Level 12 (Rogue) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Has the kingdom’s tax been proven? Because Randy talks about getting a good haul and being set for quite a while.
     
  5. Dragon

    Dragon Level 19 (Enchanter) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Yeah Randy tells Richter that the king takes half at the exit and adventurers still pay regular taxes. Richter gets to raise the tax rate to 10% with a level 2 townhal, 20% at half penalty and then full penalties after that. The kingdom of Yves is a level 5 kingdom, so a level 5 townhall seems reasonable.


    Most people earn 2 silver a forthnight or 1 copper and 4 iron bits per day. The mist villagers earn 4 silver, or 2 copper pieces and eight iron bits for a long, hard days labor, which is an exceptionally good salary.

    Over the course of a year a normal worker earns 6 gold and 7 silver for their effort (or 6700 wood chits / 670 iron bits). With which he/she pays rent/ property tax, sustenance, clothing and so on for themselves and the family. They also need to put enough aside for the occasional unforseen circumstance, though unless someone is very, very sick I doubt there are many days off apart from the occasional festival
    (those are often paid for by the lords by the way. That whole "give them cake" phrase is fake, but its not unheard of for lords to give the peasantry something to look forward to. Festivals (parties) make the peasants happy, and happy peasants put away the pitchforks.).


    Meanwhile an adventuring party of low levels should be able to earn at least a silver after taxation to split between them by pursuing low-risk encounters. Sometimes they'll earn a lot more, might even get to take home a few silver pieces occasionally. Which for a peasant is a fortune. There is even the promise of gold if they manage to raise their levels past 10 and get some real gear.

    A lot of them die to groups and enemies stronger than them, but the Yvesian king is willing to accept the loss of a few undesirables in return for increasing Dungeon revenues.

    Always plenty of runaway serfs, neerdowells and foreigners where the last batch came from.
     
  6. Mister Bill

    Mister Bill Level 12 (Rogue) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    I think it’s more likely that a lvl 5 townhall would allow for 5% increments after the first 10%. Otherwise you’d need massive benefits to offset them taking half off of the top.
     
  7. Dragon

    Dragon Level 19 (Enchanter) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Well a level 1 townhall allows for a 5%, a level 2 10%, .. level 5 probably 25%. Without penalties.

    Up to 50% for half penalty at level 5.

    So you are right about the 5% incrementals in income tax.


    The king takes half of the loot an adventurer gains as an exit fee.

    The adventurers guild takes 25 % of the remainder. That adds up to 62.5% of the total earnings.


    Add the no penalty tax of 25%, that's 75%.

    If the king accepts half penalty for a 50% tax rate the government plus guild takes 87,5% of the loot.

    That's the way Randy lays it out.
     
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  8. Dragon

    Dragon Level 19 (Enchanter) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    So it turns out I was wrong about the guild taking 25% of the remainder. They take 25% of the total haul.

    So before they even get to the tax paying part, guild and king have taken 75% or maybe a little less if your guild is generous. Sounds unlikely with a setup where people are killed for non-membership, but I can't say for sure. The yvesian adventurers guild sound like a place where you really want to be at the top.

    The tax from the town hall would still be between 25% and 50% so effective tax rate of 81.25% to 87,5% if my numbers are not off.

    Those adventurers will be kissing the ground Richter stands on when he offers them a cap of 60% and an effective tax rate hovering around 50%. Especially when the guild is forced to spend the guild dues on providing services, repairs and healing to the members rather than the members having to pay for that stuff out of their remaining loot.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2021
  9. Dragon

    Dragon Level 19 (Enchanter) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Most robber barons leave their peasants with more so they can be robbed again next year XD
     
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  10. Johan

    Johan Level 17 (Theurgist) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    And "merchant princes"
     
  11. Johan

    Johan Level 17 (Theurgist) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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  12. Dragon

    Dragon Level 19 (Enchanter) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Dungeons are rare, but not as rare as Core buildings. There are several Dungeons around Yves according to Randy.

    Its still a very valuable resource, the kind of thing that could serve as the economic foundation for any of the small and mid-sized tribes in the forest. That's no small thing.

    Its also a Dungeon of a higher and deeper power. That will make it even more valuable.
     
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  13. PokemonThug

    PokemonThug Level 17 (Theurgist) Roleplaying Exiles Beta Reader Citizen Aspiring Writer

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    sure, But Yves is built on a dungeon. So they probably won't move to get another 5th one.. when they have their own main one. Just closer and current King is super lazy..
    But tiny tribes sure they want to get in..
     
  14. PokemonThug

    PokemonThug Level 17 (Theurgist) Roleplaying Exiles Beta Reader Citizen Aspiring Writer

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    Not sure what do you think but If I was taxed 81.25% to 87,5%, I'd mutineer.
    The only benefit here would be some skill training and "dungeon trading?! and jumping to the dungeon for weeks.
    Unless the guild also provides healing and training. Because King most def does not provide that for paying taxes..
     
  15. Dragon

    Dragon Level 19 (Enchanter) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Law is built on a Dungeon.

    There are practical limitations on how many people can be in a Dungeon and how many adventurers you want organized around a Dungeon.

    Plus different Dungeons offer different things, so having more means a larger variety of loot.
     
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  16. Dragon

    Dragon Level 19 (Enchanter) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Sure they might protest a little, but what can they do? Adventurers make up 0.01% of the population and are fiercely competitive with each other. Not only that, more advanced (powerfull) adventurers likely pay a much lower share to the guild as senior members.
     
  17. PokemonThug

    PokemonThug Level 17 (Theurgist) Roleplaying Exiles Beta Reader Citizen Aspiring Writer

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    Ok say we find a group of at least 4 adventurers with a healer preferably.. better 20-30 dudes.. and some random peasants 50 in total.. and travel for like 3 weeks until we reach some avg dungeon. Sure the rewards might not be so high but no tax and lower risk. Considering the Dungeon is in neutral lands and not in gobo or orc territory.

    King will also confiscate a bunch of stuff especially any really good stuff.
     
  18. PokemonThug

    PokemonThug Level 17 (Theurgist) Roleplaying Exiles Beta Reader Citizen Aspiring Writer

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    Hmm valid points.
    Still super high level Adventures can travel to the Labyrinth clearing adventurer limit for the Dungeon.
    Also a high level dungeon can accommodate a lot of adventurer groups.. especially such a powerful +-800 year old dungeon as the on on Law. Especially with so many undesirables sacked to the dungeon. Especially after it had an age of prosperity with the Dungeon keeper ages ago..
     
  19. Sleepyhe4d

    Sleepyhe4d Level 6 (Footpad) Exiles Citizen

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    It’s the lucky combination we have with the dungeon :
    - strong item of power (dp/day)
    - placed on pop with 4 ley lines (dp * 4)
    - adventure settlement bonus (including special bonuses for “hidden quest” (god note)
    - dungeon limitless power from Richter
    - dungeon keeper who can empower everything (which felt like no one else has it)
    - higher tier and combination of chaos magic and blood magic

    - might get bonuses from sacred tree of mighty holiness and/or core buildings (like secondary attributes)
     
  20. Dragon

    Dragon Level 19 (Enchanter) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    I don't think you'll find Dungeons in a lot of places that aren't being heavily taxed. That's the reason chiefs, lords, kings and emperors want them after all.

    Might be able to find something a little cheaper, but then you don't have access to all those facilities and loot-buying merchants in Law.
     




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