Vassalage in practice

Discussion in 'Debates & Discussions' started by Johan, Mar 8, 2020.

  1. Dragon

    Dragon Level 16 (Paladin) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    That's gennerally how it works yes. They can be very, very deadly, but usually they abstain from inflicting permanent harm unless they feel actively threatened (they don't really feel fear, but they understand danger) and have no other way out. Shinecatcher could have killed several of his pursuers if he had used sling bullets instead of acorns, but he did not want to hurt anyone over that was clearly a misunderstanding. He just wanted to play with the pretty crystal after all. Until he realized Caulder had some nifty looking knives. At which point he forgot the crystal ever existed and focused on them instead.

    Kindir are perceived as harmless nuisances because they almost always abstain from using deadly force and rarely specifically target valuables, just whatever catches their fancy at the moment. Which might be a golden locket worth dozens of gold, or an old rusty bucket. No telling.
     
  2. Captain BlackJack

    Captain BlackJack Level 14 (Defender) Exiles Citizen

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    Drag, I appreciate your persistence.

    So you seriously still think Ricther doesn’t have a ruined keep. You seriously should go back and look at all the rooms Ricther has in the remains at his PoP. Do you not recall any of those? How is it you don’t recall them?

    I never stated that Ricther had descended from any of the previous rulers nor does he have to. I actually don’t think that means as much as the “might makes right” rule. Which appears very strong in the Land. Remember when someone is killed in battle often all their possessions are transferred to the victor unless an heir has been declared.




    The Kinder King had never sworn an oath of loyalty to Ricther. Although the King did recognize Ricther as his Lord. If he didn’t he wouldn’t have needed to ask Ricther to allow him to cross over as his oath had been fulfilled. When the Kinder King recognized Ricther as the Lord Of the Mist he submitted to him. Then the old Kinder King gave his ring to the Right-full Lord Of the Mist. At that point Ricther as the lord of the mist had been acknowledged as the master of the old King. That ring being the transfer of granted Rights given back to the lord of the mist. Ricther at that point could have granted the ring to anyone whom he wanted. When Ricther took the Kinder on as a vassalage he then granted the ring and all its rights back to a new Kinder Leader


    Ricther rightfully could have granted anyone that position. Ricther could have given the ring to Shincatcher as far as that goes. That doesn’t mean the Kinder have a sovereign territory. The old Kinder King served the Lord of the Mist. Remember the Kinder people don’t really tie themselves to the Land. They are more of a group of wanderers, somewhat like Gypsies. They do return from time to time but the aren’t really settlers.

    When Ricther gave the ring to the new leader of the Kinder he granted him some rights and responsibilities. As mentioned by Hastur, Flint was ordered to be at the Mist Village in a week to go over the vassalage.

    So how does Ricther making the Kinder vassals acknowledg them as rightful owners of Land? Vassalage IS NOT a deed of ownership or any kind of acknowledgement of ownership. Vassals are sworn oath takers to another Lord. A vassalage is normally land granted to a vassal that carries specific rights.

    The only kinder that are Ricthers vassals, are those that shared their oaths with Ricther. Ricther made his oath with the kinder leadership. Ricthers oath was to protect the Kinder people living in his lands. So by default any kinder that has sworn to the kinder elders will now also be vassals of Ricthers as well.
     
  3. Dragon

    Dragon Level 16 (Paladin) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    I remember it fine. As there is so far no way to restore it, building a royal hall makes a lot more sense than waiting for something to happen with it at some point in the far future. A ruined building gives no reward, thereas a lesser seat would still give some bonuses.
    Having the lord live in a ruin can't do much for public perceptions.

    Disagree strongly. Legitimacy is far more important than might of arms, chaos follows then a king is seen as unworthy or worse weak. Subordinate nobles feel free to disobey, unrest spreads, most often a civil war follows. An usurper sits on an unsteady throne. But that wasn't that I was talking about, I meant that the remnants of the old mist empire are not obliged to follow Richter due to old ties, agreements, or oaths. New ties are needed.


    As i've said, the kindir are not merely vassals, they are an acknowledged vassal state. The pixies are vassals too, but they are not a vassal state, they are a vassalized clan. Subordinate realms by their very nature have their own territories. Otherwise it wouldn't be a state, though they might be a nation.


    Words matter.

    On a sidenote, if might of arms was the most important factor, Richter would have a very hard time gaining control of his territory, let alone the greatly expanded area he gains at village level 2 (another 900 or so square miles, with presumably a dozen or so tribes). Conquering more than 300 square miles from at least four hostile native tribes is a grueling task when all you have is a few hundred green troops and a few dozen sprites. Force of arms is a poor substitute for collaboration and diplomacy in this scenario. Thankfully Richter has both Randy and the kindir on his side, which means its doable.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2020
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  4. Dragon

    Dragon Level 16 (Paladin) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Its true that any kindir sworn to the elders would in turn be Richter's vassals. Its also true that any kindir (or member of another race) residing within the hamlet of Verget Kunig and its surrounding lands (as in fields) is by default a subject of Richter, because said Hamlet is sworn to him.

    Sigh

    Its a little ambigious, but I read it as an acknowledgment that the Kindir have a right to their hamlet, as well as attached fields. Those lands are also part of Richter's realm, but they are not owned by him directly. Having ceded to the kindir the palace or whatever it is called, i'm going to say its part of their realm as well, though the lands in between is effectively crown land. Probably going to end up part of their realm, but it isn't yet.

    So you are probably right that the kindir owe Richter part of what they gather in return for the use of his land for the purposes of hunting and gathering. They remain a poor woodland tribe, so asking them to pay tax with money is futile. Natural resources, knowledge and perhaps a few guides/scouts/skirmishers remain the only thing they have to pay with. Unless of course they start pulling out chests packed with all the valuables they have gotten their sticky little fingers on over the millenia.
     
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  5. Captain BlackJack

    Captain BlackJack Level 14 (Defender) Exiles Citizen

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    If you remember that well why does Ricther need a great hall?

    Wasn’t that one of the rooms he has?

    If Ricther can rebuild the walls and such why shouldn’t he rebuild his keep?

    He could use his next wind fall of Settlement points to rebuild it. Or he could use the magic core and make it all even better.

    With the list of rooms he has the majority of a keeps rooms are there. Unless it had some specialty rooms in the upper part.

    Disagree if you like, but Richter already had legitimacy. By being the master of the PoP he became the Lord of the Mist. Then the Kinder King solidified that be surrendering his ring back to the Lord Of the Mist

    Please a vassal state?

    I need a quote supporting that. All the Kinder vassals have is a single village. There is no state there. The comment was made about getting an introduction to the other independent villages that his Kinder vassals know of.

    I just haven’t seen anyone besides you Drag acknowledging them as a vassal state. I mean Flint couldn’t even speak for the other Kinder locations. The only hope was for some introductions to the other villages.
     
  6. Dragon

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    Richter lives in a ruined keep. It has no royal hall, because a royal hall is an independent structure built by kings and powerful nobles. They are wellknown from the viking age and earlier european civilisations that did not build castles or large keeps.

    This is a modern reconstruction of a royal hall (using the same techniques its believed they used) that once existed in Lejre in denmark. It might not be that large a building by modern standards, but back in the day this thing was considered huge. A prestige project for the royal family, allowing them to seat their important nobles and warriors in the same building. A total of 658 square meters. Its great for parties too.

    [​IMG]

    It shouldn't be that hard to build either, as its essentially a really, really large longhouse.

    vassal state

    Richter also has a single village. He does not control the lands surrounding his village, let alone the remaining 300 square miles he claims.

    There are probably at least a few hundred kindir (I mean there could be many, many more, but It seemed like they were fairly low in numbers), which means they make up a sizeable chunk of the mist realm population (they might even be the largest racial group now that I think about it. I mean there are a lot of dwarves/ elves/ gnomes/ humans, but for example mountain dwarves and hill dwarves are NOT the same race. Just ask them. We know the same is true for the elves. Meanwhile for all their faults, the kindir are united in a single race). That's the proportionate relationship in which it makes sense to call the kindir tribe a semi-independent state.
     
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  7. Dragon

    Dragon Level 16 (Paladin) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Now that I think of it, I believe i calculated the kindir hamlet to about a quarter square mile in size, which doesn't sound like much, but its the same as 647497 square meters. That's actually a pretty large hideout, even if you assume each kindir has a tiny hill and home of their own, which I find unlikely. Much more likely that the only ones with a permanent residence are families and the rest just crash whereever they want. Wouldn't surprise if children are communally raised either, with their parents as their primary but far from only caretakers.
     
  8. Waterhobit

    Waterhobit Level 10 (Filcher) Citizen

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    I'm just going to ignore the argument in the room, lol. And jump back a page instead.

    I think you have hit the nail on the head regarding the true value of the Kindir. Richter really needs to unite the other tribes that are within his lands, and the Kindir are obviously the key to finding them. Additionally Richter needs news of the rest of the world, which the Kindir can provide. Additionally the Kindir can spread news of the MV to potential immigrants and adventurers throughout the river peninsula.
     
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  9. Captain BlackJack

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    As said before the Kinder are really invaluable utilizing them as guides, for recent news, and master thieves.
     
  10. Captain BlackJack

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    Banalities are paid at point of use and at the time of harvest. Normally taxes are paid once a year. That would allow for a lot of kinder to come home for a good period of time then leave prior to taxation. That is likely to happen some. Although, I believe the Kinder would be glad to pay a yearly tax as long as it is fair. Seeing how they have no “safe” place to call home. With fair laws applied in the Mist they would likely go abroad to learn and earn money then return more often staying for sometime if not settling down.

    Adding a Kinder consulate to all of The Mist Villiages Embassies would go a long way with the Kinder. Having an embassy consulate in those times of need would definitely help. Although, I could see the Kinder abusing it. Everyone would want someone to stand by them in an attempt to get a fair trail when traveling abroad.
     
  11. Dragon

    Dragon Level 16 (Paladin) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Safe only matters to a kindir with children and only when said children are still young. Well and those old enough that they can better control their wanderlust and desire for fun have a tendency to form more permanent settlements, though they still wander off on occasion. Its what made Richter's revenge so deliciously cruel, flit is essentially trapped in his position. No doubt he will adapt as kindir do.

    Long story short, they are wandering adventurers. That's their racial love, same as dwarves have wealth and smithing.

    Attracting more kindir to form semi-permanent settlements could work quite well. They'd return from their journeys bringing news and treasure with them. They would naturally tell the tales of their homes, and kindir being kindir, others will come to see this weirdo town.
     
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  12. Dragon

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    Richter still has a couple resurrection roots right?
     
  13. Captain BlackJack

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    Well safety does mean something to them. If not why would they make a deal for vassalage with Ricthers protection.

    I believe they come home to raise their children and then when they get older.

    I would say they would remain in a village untill they are old enough to be on their own. Then to raise a family and once they have seen the world and made their fortunes.
     
  14. Dragon

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    I put it badly. The current kindir settlement is described as a waystation, though I think there are at least some kindir families living their permanently. The elders seem to do so as well. More than that, wandering kindir seem to have a tendency to return to their home.

    But to most of the wandering kindir, the offer of safety won't mean much. They are natural risk takers, going where they please without much regard for the consequences.

    Richter could get an inflow of kindir families and smaller hidden settlements might decide to join the realm once they realize there is an option for safe adventuring (gotta think of the children) - that's how most kender lived, small settlements hidden in various corners, with kendermore and Hylo being the only "big" realms they had. Just not a lot of spaces where their settlements would be allowed to exist for long.

    Kencyclopedia - Kender - Cartography -

    This is a pretty good description of how kender villages function or rather not. Gets into a lot of the mechanism, including why kender elders are often powerful beings - survival of the fittest taken to the extreme means that the kenders that survive to die of old age have a lot of experiences to grow from (in the land that means levels and even tier ups) - in their own right.

    Kindir seem to be somewhat more organised and a little more aware of the value of things than kender. Still, most of this seems to hold for what we've seen of them. A chaotic race that needs an outside force to push them into organising. I wouldn't be surprised to learn the old kindir realm gradually unravelled, though it could also be they have a serious enemy that brought them down. That could be an interesting questline.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2020
  15. Dragon

    Dragon Level 16 (Paladin) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Also, for those of you interested, this article tries to unravel where kender originate. They are basically stolen from people that stole them from people that stole the hobbits and called them halflings.

    Kencyclopedia - Kender - Cartography -
     
  16. Captain BlackJack

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    LOL

    I thought the Kinder waystation was a metropolis With multiple multi story buildings? They way you have described it I was under the belief that the Kinder village had a greater population with large farms and an industrial center.

    I don’t know if AK will or not but he really needs to clarify the Kinders Vassalage. Maybe he will give us more information about his kinder in the land. AK does like to play off of other sources but he really enjoys putting his own stamp on those spins.
     
  17. Johan

    Johan Level 16 (Paladin) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Ya I still think of them as halflings ie Hobbits, which are less nimble than what kinder seem to be portrayed as.
     
  18. Dragon

    Dragon Level 16 (Paladin) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Its both. Its a 600.000 square meter waystation that serves as the hub for a community of kindir. Given the size of the place there could be thousands of kindir, but I think its lower. The kindir do live in multistory buildings, at least some of them. N

    I've repeatedly said they are a hunter/ gatherer tribe and therefore will have a hard time paying money as taxes. I doubt they have fields or much industry. Its not a necesity, the first towns weren't agricultural.
     
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  19. Captain BlackJack

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    With thousands living in the Kinder village the Sprites would definitely had to have known about it. Kinder must be very cowardly or fearful of dead. If they weren’t you would think thousands of them in such a huge city they could have fought off Nien and his troops from the Sepulcher. That would also make me wonder with so many of them living there how come they hadn’t found the Sepulcher?
     
  20. Dragon

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    So given a circle with a radius of one hundred miles from the sprites tree, there is 31.415 square miles of forestland. So the sprites are expected to know the exact location of every tribe in an area the size of Maryland? Someone would know there are minor tribes in the area, its kinda a given that a large fertile region wouldn't be uninhabited. But its not a historically important region, nothing of importance to the sprites existed there until recently (even the bugbears just ignored this remote corner). Their interests were elsewhere.

    Besides, there is only one person responsible for ensuring Richter seeks out info he needs about his home area. That person has failed to acquire info from his allies or send out scouting parties to map the entire area and determine the locations of ruins, locals and threats. That person is a fool.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2020




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