Vassalage in practice

Discussion in 'Debates & Discussions' started by Johan, Mar 8, 2020.

  1. Captain BlackJack

    Captain BlackJack Level 14 (Defender) Exiles Citizen

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    But it said explicitly that it was for being inside his settlements domain. It was cut in half when the hamlet became his vassalage.
     
  2. Dragon

    Dragon Level 16 (Paladin) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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  3. ShoughtLoud

    ShoughtLoud Level 14 (Defender) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    The penalties of having a larger population and one that likes to steal things is halved, there were no adverse effects until he vassal-ized them. (aside from obvious ones like having a foreign power living on your lands and knowing your secrets, but those are eliminated once they join up)
     
  4. Captain BlackJack

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    Shout, this has nothing to do with larger populations or a people that like to steal.

    We also hadn’t been told of any adverse effects as the Kinder just came into the story line.

    If you go back to the conversation you will might recall it is about Ricther being the Lord Of the Mist. I had stated that all the lands covered in the mist are Ricthers lands or his domain. It’s kind of odd the Lich caused Ricther to get a prompt but the Kinder didn’t. Perhaps that’s because the last Kinder king was still serving his oath out at the Sepulcher. Or could just be a discrepancy in the story.

    It was argued that the mist covered more then what is Ricthers. The statement was that Ricther was Lord Of the Mist Village but the other lands were not his.

    Then it was stated that the Kinder had ancestral rights. Which supposedly gave them more authority to the land then what the Lord Of the Mist would have. I had pointed out that the Hamlet is actually a settlement on Ricthers lands.

    The thing I found funny is that the Old Kinder King conceded to Ricthers authority as the Lord of the Mist.
     
  5. ShoughtLoud

    ShoughtLoud Level 14 (Defender) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    The conversation I was involved in was about when you were claiming there was a problem for the kindir existing in Richter's PoP radius in this post:
    But that's not the case.

    Dragon literally just put it there

    Know This! All rewards doubled and all penalties are halved for having the Vassal State within the domain of your settlement.
    The specific perks of a Level 1 Vassal State Relationship with the Minor Tribe of Verget Kunig are as follows:

    1) Unique Perk of Verget Kunig: + 4 (base + 2) Luck for every citizen of the Mist Village
    2) + 10% Morale and Loyalty (base + 5%): Having another settlement as vassal will fill your people with happiness and pride
    3) + 10% Commerce (base + 5%): The kindir travel far and wide and will bring items to trade from time to time
    4) Random boosts in Diplomacy Points with regards to other settlements dependent on the gossip and news the people of Verget Kunig bring back from other realms
    5) + 250 Crime Points (base + 500 Crime Points) in light of the kindir’s propensity to “acquire” new objects
    6) Taxes may be levied against your new vassals, though this may decrease your relationship and lead to future problems

    +250 Crime points (halved from 500) is literally the adverse effect to his adding them to his empire. Other effects were doubled as they were bonuses.

    These effects both positive and negative didn't exist until they became his vassals. He didn't have crime points from the kindir before or after he met them, only once they became his vassals.
     
  6. Captain BlackJack

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    That is correct!!!

    Ricther only suffered HALF of what he would have if they were not made vassals.

    THAT IS THE POINT.

    That being said he was going to suffer a penalty because they were in his domain.

    So if they hadn’t been added AS vassals he would have suffered 500 points because THEIR SETTLEMENT IS IN HIS DOMAIN!

    THAT IS THE CASE!!!!!!
     
  7. ShoughtLoud

    ShoughtLoud Level 14 (Defender) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    No. He would have suffered nothing and also gained nothing. Because they weren't his problem. No where does it say that having a village in the PoP domain not associated with his village will have any effect on his village. No vassals, no crime points. Vassal first, then crime points follow. They. Were. Not. His. Problem. By your logic he should have been suffering 500 Crime Points from the hamlet since book 1. As well as all the crime points of the other kindir settlements. Which he hasn't. And continues not to. Because they don't affect his settlement dynamics, until they are actually related to him by anything other than physical location. So no. It's not the case. Had they remained separate there wouldn't be anything but a lack of diplomacy points between them since he didn't have a town hall.
     
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  8. Dragon

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    That is a misunderstanding of what I intended to say. I meant the kindir had as strong a claim as Richter's if not stronger, Richter becoming lord mist does not mean everyone else magically has to/ will acknowledge him or his newfound claim on the region. Solving those kinds of disputes is part of building up the mist realm, something that will only get worse as the mist expands to new area.

    The kindir essentially dragged Richter 90% of the way (soliciting bribes, making veiled promises of more, etc. whatever it took to build up relationship points. Flit was pretty heavy handed about it, without coming out and saying it. Its kinda sad, the kindir were the babystep version of dealing with a potentially hostile tribe and Richter arguably did poorly), making most of the overtures, but they were also quite willing to align themselves with this new incarnation of the mist realm. Likely a combination of a need for protective friends, curiosity and a smidge of affection for the old. Other tribes will be harder to convince to give up their independence, it will require diplomatic work or war. A strategy in other words, diplomatic or military if not both.

    I maintain those tribes have a strong claim on their lands. They will definitely see it that way, especially when the new mist lord is relatively low in numbers and military force. Even with the aid of the kindir they are a long way from controlling the mistlands.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2020
  9. Captain BlackJack

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    Okay, so if the penalty was cut by 50% what would it have been if Ricther hadn’t made them vassals?

    I just don’t see how something that doesn’t exist can get cut in half?

    I’m not suggesting that Ricther should have been suffering the penalty as the book calls it from the beginning of book one.

    I did point out that Ricther said the Kinder Hamlet appeared to have been grown and not built.

    I had also made mention that I find it odd he got a prompt for the Litch and his domain. He didn’t get one for the Kinder. That makes me question WHY?

    Neglect of the author?

    Was it because the old Kinder King was still upholding his oath?

    Why wasn’t the issue of the penalty which Ricther clear has put in a prompt?

    My guess is because Ricther didn’t have a Town Hall.

    You say it’s because it didn’t exist. Again I don’t know how you can cut something in half that doesn’t exist?

    I had also mentioned that the Kinder Hamlet and the Kinder in general were just introduced as part of the story line.

    Within reason how would AK address something that he hasn’t even introduced to the story?
     
  10. ShoughtLoud

    ShoughtLoud Level 14 (Defender) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Last try, I just don't know how else I can explain it.
    Sorry for long post, but I'm trying to answer them all as clearly as possible. Please read don't skim.
    Also keep in mind that the Mist Village is not equivalent to the Mist PoP. It is a settlement that resides on a PoP, and gets benefits from doing so, but settlements do exist without PoPs and have a whole mechanics set governing them separate from PoPs.
    Starting from the top.
    You know how when people came to the mist village his morale and loyalty didn't change until after they swore fealty and actually became members of his village?
    Same thing.
    There would be ZERO penalty if they were not vassals. Richter was penalized for taking on vassals. The penalty is the increased crime rate. Literally cut in half during the same prompt that said all said all potential penalties cut in half and rewards doubled since the potential vassal state resides inside your domain.
    No I'm not posting the same quote again go back and actually read it. You'll see crime points base was 500 CPs but Richter only took on 250. If you go to that section in audible and listen even a little bit further Richter even calls the crime points a penalty. Should he decide to take them on as a vassal (he did) that is the penalty he will receive (does receive) and the penalty that will be halved (was halved).

    You cut in half something that is going to come into existence.
    Ex: Richter sees two identical men. One lives in his domain, in a separate village, the other lives outside Richter's domain. Richter is going to demand they give him money, but in return they get to punch him in the face. Both identical men accept. The power of the Universe demands that the man who lives in the village inside Richter's domain has to take 50% off his punch. Had Richter not approached either of these men and demanded money, he would not have gotten punched in the face at all, but he would have less money. It's 50% off of a future penalty that will come to pass if he continues along his current path i.e. having the kinder become a vassal state. No vassal state, no penalty. Yes vassal state, yes penalty, but since vassal state is inside PoP domain, Penalty reduced by half.

    Good.

    He said grown as much as built. They incorporate plants into their structures but they're not the same as sprite grown structures. Actual construction is involved as well.
    These weren't hobbit holes. These houses were actually built on top of the hills, but they still seemed to be grown as much as built. Each was constructed of wood and clay daub. They also had vines and small trees growing next to them, with plants incorporated into the structures.


    Maybe because though they were in his domain they weren't actively hurting it? We have a centuries old Litch who is actively eating away at Forest of Nadria from below. Corrupting everything he touches, has fought previous masters of the mist village etc. vs. sticky fingered, hobbit adjacent, party animals. The Powers just have their priorities straight.
    He likely didn't get a prompt about the kinder from the Powers of his village, because they couldn't rub together two fucks about the kindir. Powers being the sentient things they are cared about who has power in their domain, who has a corrupting influence, who is actively communing with one of the Exiled, etc. The Litch was an active threat to him, his interests and likely the Powers of the PoP. While the Powers of his village might not be actively benevolent, it seems that they likely would enjoy being awoken and powered up through their symbiotic relationship with Richter, and so warned him of a very dangerous threat to him and his village. The Kinder.... don't really warrant notice.

    They may have been just introduced to us, but that doesn't equivocate to being just introduced to Aleron. He started off giving Richter a 10 mile radius (314 mi^2) of PoP domain, with the option to expand by leveling up the settlement. You don't think he considered that in an area almost 14 times (13.76) the land size of Manhattan (22.82 mi^2) there might be other people living there?
    Not really sure what your asking here.
     
  11. Dragon

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    Think of it this way: If Richter controlled the Mist lands, there could easily be a penalty for having a foreign faction residing within his lands in the form of losing control of the occupied area and likely losing out on benefits for controlling all of his domain. That could be a fairly hefty penalty.

    Richter currently does not control the mist lands, other than laying out the mist-spell he has limited influence. Most of his domain is under the control of other factions or of unknown status. There are two all but confirmed major powerhouses - at the time in question the lich still "lived" and whatever is at the bottom of the ancient Dungeon Richter found, the one where they sacrificed people, presumably remains alive as well - that do as they please within the mistlands. There may be other threats to the domain that need to be conquered.

    Integrating the kindir grants Richter unchallenged dominion over their lands. Should the other tribes follow its likely there will be benefits for having unified the region, assuming there are no factions unknown to the kindir and that the last major evil can be taken down. The cost of integrating those factions is that Richter will have to put up with their peculiarities helping and hurting the mist kingdom in various ways. Such as the kindirs proficiency with "borrowing" increasing crime within the kingdom.
     
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  12. Captain BlackJack

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    Richter needs to employ a Kinder to function as a sheriff for the kinder vassals.
     
  13. Dragon

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    Noooo that would be a bad idea. Kindir don't understand what theft is and i'm not sure they have other types of crime.
     
  14. Captain BlackJack

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    Yeah!!!!

    That’s exactly why they would need heir own sheriff.

    I think each distinct vassalage would need their own sheriff. Do you think it would be better to have someone like Caulder as the Kinders Sheriff?

    Although that might be a good way to increase someone’s hand up hand experience.
     
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  15. Dragon

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    Ok i'm convinced.
     
  16. PokemonThug

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    Richter need to get other tribes online.
    Hit bugbear camp, which location he already knows lol.. steal their food/bag of holding
    Take moneys!

    Spread rumors that moneys gone food is poisoned! hehehe.. attack two days later again..
     
  17. Captain BlackJack

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    Shouldn’t Ricther have gained some serious points with the living dead and the sentient dead? Not only had Ricther returned the heart crystal to the Vampires but I freed all of the dead. Ricther broke the ties of bondage that had kept all of the dead under Singh’s control. Not only should Ricther earn fame points but he should earn a better standing among the dead.

    I’m not saying they are ripe for vassalage but freeing them from the Litchs bondage has to mean something. That could give him in-roads to the five or six sentient dead races mentioned.
     
  18. Andrew Lynas

    Andrew Lynas Level 15 (Guardian) Exiles Beta Reader Citizen

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    Possibly, of course the Fame he gets might not necessary be just Good Reputation for freeing them, but also have to consider the effect that he led the assault that killed so many of them, killed the Lich Singh and caused the destruction of the Mausoleum and the Unleashing of the Exiles Wrath? Might be a bit Swings & Roundabouts Reputation and Fame wise?
    Would be interesting to see how any Fame/Reputation gained from freeing them from Singh might stack not just with his Undead Reputation Boosting Dungeon Perk but also with his his Vile Bloodline might impact his encounters with Undead and particularly Living Dead, especially when it's activated.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020
  19. Captain BlackJack

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    I don’t think it would bring him down with the any of the sentient dead. Because when they when the came out from under sings power they united and fought their way out of the non-sentient dead. The way it read to me they were completely surrounded by skeleton warriors of all types. Yet, they fought their way though escaping to some unknown location.
     




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