What's a good definition of LitRPG?

Well the thing is "rules-light" just means closer to reality; and so the xenith of gaming for role players, full immersion VR, is considered less of a role playing experience than something like Final Fantasy games with turn based combat. MMOs with "real time" dice are also considered more like role-playing games than VR games which have all the same abilities but rely solely on skill and character resistances to decide both damage and mitigation.

The arbitrary rules from games can directly translate to a numberless and character-sheetless environment, at least on the surface. Did anyone that read Tolkien need to know that a Mithril tunic was a good piece of gear, or that Sting was in some way different from other non-magical weapons that didn't glow on occassion? I think you're right that the genre is limited from more mainstream appeal by those that insist their gaming preferences outweigh the role-playing preferences of others, but I also think that the strength of LitRPG lies in its story telling devices.

I imagine LitRPG story telling like a circular flow chart with 3 main stops:
Modern Perspective, Assumed Participation / Role-playing, and "Show then Tell"

Modern perspective is the modern lens of the real world that acts as a story-telling shortcut. Using our modern mores or sensibilities that more quickly (and humorously) translate the game world to the reader, and informs protagonists choices and the readers interpretation of their choices. Meta-Awareness serves this same purpose in what I call LitRPG-Lore, but with no need of having the character be aware of the modern world, only the rules of their own world: so Meta-Awareness for Lore titles is an "Audience Perspective".

Assumed participation or role-playing means that its part of the story that the characters go along with the world, and even if they are burned out or fed up, they keep going through the universe acting out their roles even though their objectives and ambitions might change. The trope for this I came up with is, "That's Life" - where players play the game to play the game. For LitRPG Lore I don't have a name for it, but right now I just call it a survival story where stories with life and death stakes have players that play the game to continue becoming stronger so they can survive and continue playing the game. Participation in LitRPG Lore titles is often just the MC not committing suicide and trying to live, but that's true of many YA stories and thrillers.

"Show then Tell" is anything that performs the same role as a MMO Combat Log, the role of introducing information. For mud and mmo-game enthusiasts combat logs are basically shorthand. Where after some experience with the characters stats and damage output, and the average enemies stats and output, we can immediately discern a great many things. Either about a characters weapon upgrades, their enemies mitigation, whether or not an enemy died from a combo of attacks based on total damage. Its also Tolkien's One Ring granting invisibility and Sting glowing, or lembas biscuits being incredible trail food.

Every sentence of a LitRPG hits something on that flow-chart. The only way for something to be barely LitRPG in my opinion, is for it to be poorly crafted.

Switching from the Modern Perspective to Meta-Awareness, having the character assume the role of fantasy character after having been established as a world traveler with an identity other than that of a fantasy protagonist.

Breaking with "Show then Tell" means that what was previously shown, and explained, has become contrary to whatever the protagonist has managed to pull off without explanation: I call this break which is common for fantasy and sci-fi "Imagination!" or "Magic and Rainbows!" when it happens in LitRPG.

A protagonist giving up their role within a LitRPG story isn't really surprising given the epic and ridiculous stakes readers love, but if its done in a way that isn't informed by the rules of the universe and that doesn't fit with tone of the story previously set; its more likely a genre breaking move where the character voluntarily chooses to live a fantasy/sci-fi existence in a game world they have become familiar with. This is a huge problem for our American Serials, and why I've had a hard time getting into American LitRPG just from the Kindle Samples I've read.

Plenty of stories successfully pull off genre changes, but they are structured that way. Other genres can (and have) become LitRPG as a surprise twist ending, and some people think we live in a simulation, so maybe technically everythings LitRPG to those folks, but for everyone else I think a basic consistent story is key to cross-over appeal.

Which explains why Sword Art Online, and 'Is it okay to pick up girls in a Dungeon?' are so popular, both stories have LitRPG story telling accelerating tropes, but both worlds have inhabitants totally committed to their roles. I consider SAO to be a story that transitions back and forth very effectively between filler and life and death stakes, and so in my opinion it's both LitRPG and LitRPG Lore, because it doesn't try and be both at the same time. 'IIOTPUGIAD?' is LitRPG Lore, as all the characters are aware of their worlds game mechanics and accept them, but the audience perspective (specifically the collectivist Japanese) informs much of the humor and drama.

Most of this probably seems overly generalized and as though its something which could apply to all fantasy and sci-fi as its basic story telling to be consistent, but in my mind unless the 3 fundamentals of LitRPG story-telling are adhered, then the story lacks a persistent LitRPG perspective and becomes something other than LitRPG. Or at least some % less than 100% LitRPG. Though I joined these boards specifically because the "Barely LitRPG" attitude found elsewhere seemed closed off to debate.

Its nice to be able to say this stuff out loud and not even feel as though I'm about to have an argument! Still curious if Conor or anyone else from this thread had plans for a "What is LitRPG?" book...

 

Some *very* vocal readers. If you have a good solid system underlying the concept of your game world AND keep things very much as in a game world, then the amount of actual statistics can be downplayed. Some of the Russian and early American books have tons of numbers, most of which are pretty much meaningless. The main thing is, keep things consistent. At least, in my opinion, ymmv.
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Edited post posting, because I roll slowly without coffee.

Is there some way to double like Matthew's post? It's slid so far into the epic it's close to achievement unlocked level.

 

I suspect whoever has the audacity to publish such a book will go down in the annals of history! Will the book be wildly popular? YOU BET. Will it be embraced as gospel or denounced as heresy? Prolly somewhere in between.

 

For Matthew James after having posted a post of posted Epic postedness.

I salute you.

 

There is also some pretty hardcore LitRPG lag when it comes to getting to the stories for some reason. Its like if Starship Troopers (the movie) had been 80% bootcamp and 20% fighting bugs, and then they found out later that 100% of what people wanted was Space Marines in stratosphere drop-pods fighting lazer shooting insects just like in the books. Plot optional. The numbers seem to show up the most in Asian serials, but they use it to short-cut things not related to the main character being awesome...

... and to hit word counts! I actually found myself getting hyped when reading a Korean story where the character got a new item, and when I played MMOs hardcore I didn't run a DPS parser to see if my damage went up with a new weapon, I started smacking things. So for the MMO crowd those numbers tell a story too, the problem is the damn mudflation of the LitRPG novels where characters must always be more epic and make huge leaps and bounds. People start out doing 5 damage, and end up doing 25,000 damage x5 in a combo, and after a certain amount of time I just want to know how much damage was actually done to a monster and the effect of a blow in a LitRPG world. The way I most liked combat log damage numbers being used was to say, "Main character is dodging around like a monkey with a jet-pack, and this is going to be a three hour fight so rather than say that MC gradually wore down a monster we'll let you know something changes in intervals by telling you how much damage is being dealt. Then using words to convey how bad ass jetpack-monkey is at dodging this OP as hell boss mob before taking it down."

Also I do like the loot windows... no idea how to replicate that particular sense of excitement other than having the loot reward and its effects be known before hand in a statless VR game. Random loot has been a big part of MMOs, and so capturing that element would be harder, or at least recover way more effort, then saying, "Check out this dope orc-stabbing thingie!"

I was just trying a line out for a intro to the "What is LitRPG?" book... writing on hardmode at the moment by trying to make it something someone who doesn't even like LitRPG would enjoy reading. Sports analogies, History vs Historical Fiction, and religious fiction vs real blasphemy which is fan fiction. Then I realized I'll have to explain the current definitions of LitRPG to even began with my take. I've been stuck in a typing roundabout since last night because of it.

 

That achievement silhouette looks like MewTwo and Frieza had a baby.

 

I was actually going for an ironical Literary Fiction burn with my definition. Same way I said LitRPG Lore is for those who want to play games they can't, Literary Role Playing Games / LitRPG is like Literary Fiction but for stories people might actually like. All the social commentary potential with none of the hullabaloo of a public forum to discuss its exact intent and meaning.

 

Well I think if I can work my ideas into something with cross appeal to book writers and LitRPG fans then it will be worth publishing... but right now my thoughts aren't "How should LitRPG be done exactly", its rather, "What is the potential of LitRPG and how is it different from other genres of Fiction". To which I literally have to bullshit up a worthy answer.

I didn't know about the book sales after a tragedy, but I did know that book pirating in South America is a huge market. Its stealing, technically, but I doubt that much enters into the minds of people who are huge fans of some of the worlds most popular writers. The official print editions in reputable stores cost close to their North American prices if I remember right, and 10 to 15 dollars for a book to the majority of those that love to read is way more than they could afford. The criminals in South America are those that help their countrymen read books at a price they can afford...

I feel like LitRPG right now is held hostage by a small group of superfans who want everything done "by the book" at the cost of the initial hurdle of investment by others who aren't as "wealthy" as they are, not due to a lack of money: but because new readers don't have the time and energy to be inclined to learn what the super fans have had a lifetime to accumulate. I love LitRPG stories, but I also want the genre to thrive and expand its horizons, especially in regards to new readers. Opening up dramas, romance, and slice of life type stories would be great, especially if it can be done in a similar way to RPO's love of pop culture and gaming.

One really good book with cross over appeal will breed more of the same, and that expands the niche which expands the target audience. The fact that LitRPG can be pretty much any story type due to virtual / alternate worlds is pretty awesome. I really think Amazon empowered the nerds by starting the trend to recognize LitRPG. Unless some other big publisher deserves the credit... I've got a bunch of research to do still for the "history" of LitRPG.

 

I also like making my readers happy.

 

It seems like authors and aspiring authors are kind of scared of the LitRPG audience, due to possibility of extreme reactions/reviews.

They do seem very picky and weird about the “rules” of a very young subgenre. That makes me scared.

Remind me a little of romance readers who will eviscerate an author if a long list of required tropes is not included in the book.
(I tried writing sci-fi erotic romance and they certainly eviscerated ME.)

At the same time, I notice a lot of LitRPG reviews that are like “This is an ok book, but same old SAO kind of scenario.”
So hopefully there are some readers looking for different stuff.

 

Yeah, exactly!!! Great post. You phrase my hopes and dreams perfectly.

Honestly I've never been into MMOs, I'm an old tabletop gamer, and single-player JRPG and western RPG player, and occasionally I like small group co-op PVE type games.
I'm praying there's a lot of room to expand what "LitRPG" means to include this stuff.

 

So the issue is that a lot of American LitRPG stories lack stakes? They're just about playing a game with no stakes beyond leveling up and getting the phat loot?

 

Let's not allow the whimsy and egregious drawing of lines in the sand to confuse the matter. No genre embraces bad stories over good ones. Give your protagonists options, raise the stakes, allow them to drive the story and make difficult decisions with lasting repercussions and fall on their f**cking faces and did deep so they can get back up again and then (maybe) succeed.

Everything else is only window dressing. It's important, because you're going to see it in the periphery when you're gazing in wonder at the kick ass view, but the conventions of any genre are just tools. Use them or don't. Know the rules before you break them, and then write something that sings.

 

Good morning! And what I meant with that particular comment was that American serials switch from the "Modern Perspective" for their characters and readers, to the "Audiene Perspective" or Meta-Aware state when they don't emphasize that their character gone to seed is still part of a LitRPG verse. Their stories become indistinguishable from Sci-Fi / Fantasy in the resting state and they don't use any of what I consider the tools of the genre to keep their story humming along. Its totally plausible to have a character emotionally break down in a Portal World / Game World story that qualifies as LitRPG-Lore, but the definition that people had come up with before in this thread had "Meta-Awareness" as a pervasive presence. If one isn't on occassion reminded of the fact that the characters are metaware or aware they are in a game world with some game like elements, then those game like elements are often indistinguishable from features of other genres like Fantasy and Sci-Fi.

Its not the stakes that need to be upped arbitrarily which may have led to a characters burn out in the first place, its the awareness of their own place in that world as a stalled out player / stranded "modern perspective" possessing person. Then informed by their utilization of the game-like world for their new hermit / alcoholic existence. Then informed by their choice to continue living and participating in that world in a diminished capacity compared to what they had done when they were the big hero or the big swinging dick on the block.

Its a pretty common theme, "burn out former hero fortuitously found at the bottom of a bottle, miraculously rehabilitate themself and gives up the sauce", but thats only if he or she ends up getting back in the saddle. If they kill themself, as long as they do it with a level 5 fire-ball straight to the temple I'd say that ending qualifies as LitRPG.

 

I think this would be the basic reason for even having a genre definition, so one can break the rules and go offroad and then get back on pavement just long enough to stay qualified as a given genre, if that was their goal. If someone wants to write something genre breaking that is good, multiple genres will claim it before leaving it out in the cold.

The two big issues I've had with getting into American stories is inconsistent perspective. Once I get this "What is LitRPG?" virus out of my system, my own world switches between NPC (I call them non-players) and player perspectives. Thats the only reason I went with "Audience Perspective" vs "Meta-Awareness", because my own story relied on non-player characters that aren't aware they are in a game and that are surrounded by players talking around the fact that they are in a game. Players do this so they don't lose intimacy with very important non-players who really don't want to hang out with immortals who on top of everything else, are bat shit crazy and think they live in a game.

Most of my time spent on this topic is making excuses for how I still qualify my stories as LitRPG.

 

I like this in my stories. Wish fulfillment, yo!