Anyone else bored of there being no real consequences?

I've been busy studying, and reading The Chinaman and American Assassin as the films look great, so haven't read as much LitRPG as I was before. But ... I'm getting bored of there being no real consequence. They die ... they respawn. They fail a mission ... so what?

It just feels that right now everyone is following a formula rather than trying to play with the genre. Reviewers that review books solely on whether they 'are LitRPG', and the obsession over page count aren't helping.

I feel/am afraid that we're just going to end up with a whole collection of books that are basically clones, and this early on in the genre's life, that's not a good thing.

That, or I've got the Monday blues.

 

Oooh, not heard of the term 'roguelike' before.

 

Lol, thanks, wiki'd it as well The MUDS that i used to play were like this as well. Gauntlet falls into this as well.

 

I remember the graphics being far better than that

 

Totally agree with some books being wash, rinse, repeat. It's like that with most of the genres out there. However yesterday when searching the bowels of amazon I found some Russian litrpg titles that may be unique. One looked like a sports title? Weird....

 

Totally agree with the post apoc theme. Seems to me sci-fi litrpgs are few and far between.

 

Which is why I set my series, the 49ers, in sci-fi, I just wanted to branch out a bit.

 

I think Mad Max done with the Need For Speed / Fast & Furious crowd in mind might be something fun to play with. The main character stumbles onto some Middle Eastern prince's car garage but has to explore (and restore) the cars and the settlement that was created using all the car parts and an oil refinery.

Have a secondary part of the quest line / story be for the factions involved to gather up enough crude fuel (while also processing enough to have a commercial combustion engine gas powered home base) to fuel a super tanker ship. If it's LitRPG the desert can have "glass" highways from high flying ships regularly pass by overhead that once waged war between themselves for supremacy over earth. Totally indifferent to the "rad-rat" dregs of humanity still trying to survive on the surface.

Throw in car courses that are peppered with space-ship ruin filled terrain and have levels in the form of "radiation tolerance" where a Max Level player can simply survive the worst of the wasteland. So a super futuristic salvage mission for "radiation-tolerance" levels gained somehow from the wreckage, with a home base aspect built off of crude oil and fast-travel in the form of many different vehicles. Throw in bored "rich folk" like with The Hunger Games or Last Exile then make it a virtual "Scrapheap Challenge" style tournament on top of it all for some real cash money stakes. Maybe have it be a game like EVE and Dust 514, where the ships flying above are part of a separate MMO experience. If its a mmo experience at all.

Isolated tournament with high stakes is one of the settings I've thought about, but the whole Mad Max franken-car universe doesn't really do it for a lot of people. Having the shiny cars and weird futuristic mash up with the crudest survival tech known to man might be a fun playground. Throw in pyschic powers or some other apocalypse trope and a game-like system would be easy to set up. Mongolian sand worms and tremors too.

I have zero interest in franken-cars or sports cars outside of seeing them get made or raced, and I understand absolutely zero about the process for both or I'd try and take a run at a story like this. No oil runs in my veins, I didn't get the gear-head gene that every other male in my family has.

I have a trope for this called "Justice for Puppy" which is a reference to John Wick's motivation for the first film. Someone killed his dog, a gift from his deceased wife and his last tether to a better world, and from that point forward no one really questions why he's tearing up the town. The stakes might not mean shit for the immortal player, but the stakes for a NPC in a game world where there are conditions for resurrection (like a mostly intact body) or where there is no resurrection period, makes traveling down into a dungeon with NPC companions a dangerous journey. In my own vapor-ware story the NPCs will ditch a player that is too gun-shy and unwilling to risk their virtual buddy; and so the players have to take their companions into harms way to keep them as allies anyways. If you know gamers personalities, this is a good way to get people to play hero, create loveable buddies that have quests that bring them together with players who can choose to be heros, and once the mission is done they can continue fighting for good, or the blood god.

Setting up the game universe so players can be serial killers and other players that care about the universe have to act as white blood cells to remember a players face is one way to add drama. Imagine building up a player city to the point where its recognized as a starting village for other players, and then some level one mercenary pops in right after and walks into the nearest, bar tips over some dwarven spirits, and lights up your timber-framed city. There are all sorts of themes that are possible in LitRPG, but right now the harsh as hell reviews seem to be the main source of author reticence in pursuing them.

Whether its a movie, a book, or a game, the valuation of the virtual isn't something a lot of us question when it comes to entertainment. Tearing up at a sad story or laughing at a comedy is just natural. So I totally agree with Matthew Sylvester that stakes which are totally necessary, but whether its an emotional stake or actual life and death stakes for the player doesn't really matter as long as the reader cares about the conflict within the story.

Not a lot of romance genre readers complain about rather formulaic reads, I imagine the same will be true for LitRPG once the people enthusiastic for the genre embrace more variety. Right now its mostly start at level 1 and earn their way up from game launch style stories, or portal world stuff with game systems. Then because integrating real life into epic gaming sessions is a huge story breaking inconvenience, every other author literally kills their main character or kills their social life. I don't have a problem with that, its just lazy as hell and puts us into the game world 24/7. So if that is the path an author is taking, the least they can do is make their world as interesting as is humanly possible.

The better the game elements of the game world, the less likely it is sci-fi will have a greater claim on the story than LitRPG. Mixing sci-fi and LitRPG isn't an issue, but Ready Player One did not have a balanced game world at all, and the only reason it gets a pass from me is because the game currency is the real world currency. That one feature of the book tied up so many damn loose ends and kept people focused on the game. There wasn't game wide balance because it was left to admins of certain zones, and most of the story related zones we get to see were made without balance by the game creator; the real world was itself more of a sci-fi backdrop that forced people into the game and got us to accept the premise of the story. So for me, RPO is way more LitRPG than Sci-Fi.

I still haven't read the 49ers yet, so I'll have to look forward to seeing how the Sci-Fi / LitRPG balance plays out.

edit: can't write shit in my word processor, can write forever in stupid posts! fml

 

I absolutely, positively, cannot stand "You are reborn in a litrpg" or "X person has been kidnapped/You need to earn money to X" and "So and so has been sentenced to serve their prison term in a videogame" as framing devices.

The first one I can accept in some very limited circumstances, because I've seen that it can be done well (A new manga called Re:Yamcha where a Dragonball fanatic is reborn... as Yamcha), but the last two just zero me out the moment I look at them. The money earning idea is an attempt to inject really stupid stakes into a story when the author realizes he has one, and the latter makes it impossible for me to suspend my disbelief. I tolerated it in Way of the Shaman, but... it really just feels like a ludicrous plotpoint.

In a similar vein, I wish more authors would give some thought to their mechanics. Charisma as a stat is cool. Charisma as a stat that affects other players in a VRMMO is generally nonsense unless you give me a reason to believe why it should work.

 

One of the things that annoys me to no end is when a writer mistakes adding a few imaginary numbers to a "character sheet" and thinks that *that* is character development. You will get to see a character read through their sheet 15 times a chapter, have long detailed thinking info dump text blocks about whether to increase strength by 1 or 2 and then they pop a point into intelligence and *bing* they're now "K.A.T. duhhh Smart!". The secret class no one out of the millions who have come before has ever discovered, the overpowered ridiculous skill that even the character will admit is overpowered and ridiculous and yet they *still* have it and no Gamemaster has spotted it or the system hasn't nerfed the crap out of it! We're gamers! How likely is it that they don't get nerfed!

It's no wonder there are no "stakes" in the game, it's a huge pack of Marty Stu's who are weighed down by their list of skills that's longer than their arm and the incredible weight of the gold colored, scaling super weapons that almost crushed them when they killed a rat. A rat they could only defeat because of the secret class they discovered or were handed by the "Goddess" GM of the system who, for some inexplicable reason, along with every other female connected with the game, has an incredible level of lust for the Marty Stu player who really isn't the wish-fulfillment stand-in for the writer. Really! Really honest and truly!

It's like reading Penthouse Forum letters with character sheets.

OK, I feel better now.

 

I forgive the serial writing Asians for this and other prolific guys because the stat stuff eats up pages. Hopefully Amazon won't have to swoop down and go all anti-slavery by saying "Stat "Window" pages are only worth 3/5th a page!"

I actually don't have a problem with secret classes as long as they aren't crazy insane, in my world the racial bonuses are all crazy over powered, but have limited utility. Dwarves have anti-crushing boons and the ability to breathe anything like its air, and they can hold their breath for a long time. But the anti-crushing was designed for large monster battles and cave ins, so basically super-scaled "blunt" attacks that help on the lower end, they have zero protection against a samurai sword or the negative effects of a concussion. Plus a spiked mace is just as likely to trepan them as any other race. So if the neighbors to the dwarves, elves, are the first to get access to a limited class from a one time event, and part of that classes abilities are anti-crushing and "plant" immunities to diseases harmful to other humanoids with an over powered regeneration ability based on their enemies current "Heal over time" rate and base regen, then all they have against the dwarves who have no healing classes or innate regen is equal footing. Traveling between continents however for either race will come with huge situational advantages and disadvantages.

Players can find special classes or items that give them abilities and boons similar in potency to racial abilities, but elves who get infinite stamina and arbitrarily higher acrobatic skills, already make the best "travel" class when on foot or in rough terrain. Elven tradeskillers and merchant players also get the boon of a short cooldown lightning attack (that they can't abuse with tiny mana pools), which is magic based. In my world, magic based everything is a coin toss; so a paladin of any race on an armored horse can run down a thousand elves if they get decent mana regen or have a partner that can give them mana back. Stamina rejuvenation is a low cost mana spell for a human sized ally, but for a horse it will eat up more juice. Stamina rejuvenation for an elf that is using a weapon or armor set up unsuited for their class, like an elven ranger in full plate swinging a war-scythe, will cause a massive stamina drain that negatively affects their other racials: making them worse than any other race when temporarily taking advantage of armor and weapons that aren't meant for their build. So a paladin wearing caster gear on a pony might look ridiculous, but that might be a scarier sight for an overencumbered elf than a whole army or horse speed gnolls or werewolves which they actually have a chance to outrun.

Fortunately for players in my world the risk vs reward for dick-headery isn't worth it until long after someones character and repeutation has been established. Plus it's impossible for actual pyschopaths and "disruptive" personalities to log into the game due to the tech / culture, combined with quests based on personality and deeds within the game, its unlikely a griefer will ever end up maximizing a build based on picking off merchants. That doesn't mean a paladin can't turn buccaneer or corsair in times of war, or find a hidden and particularly neutral church which is more suited to bandits.

I think almost anything is doable in a LitRPG story if its done well and fun for the reader, and part of that is having the MC suffer their lumps and not talk down the odds they are up against. 90% of the time there is no game-like justification for why the enemies are all powerful and it will be a crazy win for the protagonist, and this happens after scenario #245 where the protagonist wins in epic fashion. Whether its an arbitrary and unfair stat advantage, or a minor boon for the player that will have a force multiplying effect against certain enemies behaving in a certain way, once that sort of thing is established the natural course is for the rug to be pulled out from under the player the next time they try it. But... wish fulfillment is definitely a huge part of these stories. So if the protagonist loses, it has to be while trying to protect the girl against impossible odds, and then he has to get the girl in the end, or build his or her harem up some more.

In my world I went with "hidden" stats which is a big No-No according to the rules of LitRPG as put forth by some. So revealing that the game world is basically a totally indifferent GM/DM that is rather forgiving but contingent on certain stats as well as the player character's history and the lore of the game, leaves a huge "game breaking" gate for people to drive through. Except in my world this has to happen because the GM staff is limited in how they can intervene, and the developers didn't exactly do the most perfect job when it came to building their own games.

Thus a totally open ended world is more likely to "bug out" and reward inappropriately but appropriately those players who accidentally beat the seemingly impossible odds they are up against; and when that happens, its left up to the game system how to proceed. This effects characters from my game world in a huge way. Because most of these "bugged" events are present at the start of the game, and once they have their advantage it affects the development of the server as a whole. Plus in a game world built without any mind for balance 100% of the time, the big guilds are likely to stack gear on their key players and most trusted core members. Thus a guild leader and individual raid leaders are more likely to continue stacking gear of legendary quality to "keep it in the family". So "balance" in a world meant to reward players with unfair advantages, but at a scope appropriate for any single player, isn't game breaking. It might however be game ruining if the "fun" of such a world isn't convincing to the reader and those who aren't particularly fond of the protagonist as written by any given author.

The problem I'm facing right now is that it feels like I'm trying to write an overly wordy high fantasy novel... and I'm no word smith. Prowriting Aid is helping at least, but that's demoralizing in its own way. The fun is easy to write and apparent to me, but I solve communicating that to readers in a somewhat racist way, "Why aren't there more black people playing in this game?" Because black people aren't masochists, VR games like Medieval Fantasy RPGs are basically the worlds best "Bad Weather Camping Trip and Second Job Simulator!" Getting that point across requires making jokes and using stereotypes is probably something I can't get away with given the LitRPG crowd so far. I don't think they can accept Louis CK / George Carlin style humor in a novel with even Whedon level dialogue (I'm not claiming to be that funny, but as an example =P), because and this is the most frustrating part of all to read as someone in the vaporware stage:

"That's not LitRPG!"

I would be totally okay with someone like Seagrim hating my novel if I ever complete it and don't pull it off to his tastes, but writing it specifically for a crowd that doesn't even want it sort of makes the whole damn exercise feel like a waste of time. Maybe I can market it to larpers.

edit: dwarves can breathe gaseous poisons/ particulates like air due to the subterranean lore of their race in my world, they can't breathe anything, or they would have no need to hold their breath underwater. Wall of Text complete now!

 

Just remembered I wanted to respond to this part of seagrims post too! By responding to Paul Bellow! *pom poms waving*

I made this in response to a post in the "What is LitRPG?" thread but never posted it... hording it selfishly for my own "What is LitRPG?" book.

"Paul Bellow: "What about Guardians of the Flame and Quag Keep? Should they maybe be Pre-LitRPG?""

Modern sensibilities in a survival setting that takes advantage of modern knowledge and game knowledge to continue living for a goal other than basic survival? If those stories didn't involve characters transported to fantasy avatars, and some basic knowledge of what was occurring, the stories wouldn't work. Haven't actually read Quag Keep, so can only speculate based on a review.

GOTF however definitely hits those notes, if it wasn't a portal world story, surviving to continue winning at playing the game would be acceptable... I'm on the fence about whether or not "immortality as a video game character" should really belong to the LitRPG genre. Not because it doesn't hit all the same notes, but because survival to survive to continuing improving to survive some more feels like it should be its own genre really. Let The Hunger Games, the Maze Runner, and all those types of LitRPG stories get together and play out their most predictable tropes in a new survival genre.

In the case of immortal game characters, "Immortal sexy vampires gamers out of touch with a modern world that continues to produce people who want to give up reality to live in a game ruled by ancient "gamers"." Thats some hardcore nerd wish fulfillment. Paging Lestat.

 

heehee

 

Can you post some links to these "rules"? Kinda curious.

 

The Definition of LitRPG
Divine Commandments of LitRPG: 1) A LITRPG SHALL involve some type of expliticitly stated progression (ie leveling, report of item finds, quests, etc) 2) A LITRPG SHALL involve a game-type world of some kind that the main character has been involved in

http://forum.litrpg.com/pages/Whatislitrpg/

Not sure if there is more to that definition. This would seem open to lots of different types of stories, but any visit to book ratings on Amazon / Ramon's litrpg podcast or the LitRPG reddit page will reveal very quickly that explicitly stated progression means "explicitly stated in status windows" and not simply stated in a novel format.

Conor who posts around these parts had his published book rejected from one of the LitRPG facebook groups promotion days because it wasn't LitRPG enough for people that arrived on the scene years after he did.

So while hidden mechanics that might be revealed at a later date aren't okay, all straight forward but absolutely shit mechanics that aren't even consistent from chapter to chapter get a pass.

Spoilers for B TV and a vidya game ahead:
There was an episode of the "Twilight Zone" where a mother wishes that a member of her family would be replaced, and she wakes up the next day and they have been replaced with a stepford child. Rinse repeat with the rest of her family. Then her perfect family is out of sync with her, and the story comes full circle and its her turn on the chopping block. Except it turns out that the magical purple portal which zaps her away into nothingness was taking place within a very crude version of the Sims. A little girl in control of the family tweaked them to make herself happy, and it was all relayed as though it was real.

Whatever mechanics made the world "work" were unknown to both the mother and viewer, and thus the reveal at the end was that the story was, "Peekaboo! LitRPG!"

Even when the twist is literally a game story ending, that still doesn't qualify as LitRPG by the accepted standard put forth.

So in one of the Star Ocean games when it turns out that everyone is an avatar of hyper-dimensional beings or some crap, but that isn't revealed until well into the game. I think nearer the end, I watched a friend play through parts of it so not sure exactly when the reveal occurs. That turns a regular LitRPG story based in an exactly the same world as Star Ocean with all the same mechanics from a regular LitRPG into a LitRPG based in a VRMMO.

Even when the mechanics aren't hidden, the fundamental nature of the universe within a JRPG isn't necessarily meant to be related with numbers. All the flashy abilities and big crunchy numbers splashing all over the screen could perfectly inform the style of a novel story featuring exactly zero numbers or "stat" modifiers. If the "hidden" nature of the items, and abilities, were related through regular story telling tropes.

Except that becomes fantasy to the LitRPG crowd, even when, like with Star Ocean, half way through the story it is literally revealed that the universe is a game world.

 

The consequences should fit the system. If it's a game where you hope in and out, say Dragon's Warth by Brent Roth, then I would expect low consequences to dying. If it's trapped in a digital world or alternate reality with game like rules then I would hope for a bigger consequence up to only 1 life.