What's a good definition of LitRPG?

Hi Matthew. Now that you point it out, I can see that you are right: the language is slippery. But I think the actual idea is very important. Yes, it refers to the idea that there are at least two levels to the narrative. There is the game/challenge, and its rules and goals, and then there is the story of the characters who are playing the game/undertaking the challenge. While this alone wouldn't define LitRPG it is an interesting feature of the genre and the sort of thing that Literature PhD students will soon be writing dissertations on

How about this:

LitRPG is a literary genre where games or game-like challenges form an essential part of the landscape. A LitRPG work simultaneously narrates the story of characters inside and outside of the game-world. At least some of the characters in a LitRPG novel therefore understand that they are playing a game: they are 'meta-aware'. So, while Tolkien's Lord of the Rings is a fantasy novel, a book about people creating avatars and interacting in a Lord of the Rings MMORPG would be a LitRPG novel.

 

I like it!

 

I like the lack of levelling etc as a requirement. That is most certainly going to look incredibly dated as games become more integrated into life, and expand beyond 'stats' per se

 

I like the broader definition as well.
With that in mind, let me open a whole new can of worms: If LitRPG doesn't need levels and progression, but just game elements, then shouldn't we change the category name to go beyond just "RPG"?

 

The LitRPG, in my opinion, is defined not only by the game menus as if playing a game, but also about the progression and limitations of the character. In traditional fantasy or science fiction, you can pretty much have your MC pull off whatever you want to beat the boss, maybe come up with uber spell 123 right on the spot. In LitRPG the MC goes into battle with a certain set of skills and have limitations to what they can do. A rogue with sneak skills is not going to pull off a random fireball at the last minute, but if he had a dagger of flame it might be possible. Further, you would already know if he or she had the weapon.

Character progression is necessary and transparent to the reader. Dropping the 'RPG' or giving people freedom of skills without some kind of focus is no longer LitRPG, and it then verges into the Fantasy or Science Fiction realm. While I do not disagree that as games progress they will become less about levels, I believe this LitRPG genre will still have to define those skills and progression.

That said, the progression can be whatever you want to dream up. My book, I do have levels, but they are determined by the floor they reach in a tower climb. They have limited skills, and have to make it work for them. So my main MC is never going to win in a straight up fight with anyone because he is not class that is designed to do that. He has the ability to not be seen and to perceive things that normal players will not. The reader knows all this. I think this is a very important distinction in the LitRPG realm.

 

I don't think any story, LitRPG or not, could get away with just making up spells, weapons, skills, etc. without introducing that skill or inventory first, so I don't see that as unique to LitRPG. But I agree, it seems like there should be some kind of skill / progression - I was just pressure testing the wider definition.

 

I am concerned by how many reviews dig in their heels about what IS and ISN'T litRPG, considering the fact that the genre is quite new. Still, I appreciate the passion.

Unfortunately, it's not something that's going to be agreed upon anytime soon. I've literally seen tears spilled (more than once!) and blood drawn (somebody accidentally slammed his hand in a door he was slamming to make a point) amongst pro authors as they butted heads over the - "Star Wars - Fantasy or Science Fiction ?" debate. (f**cking midichlorians...)

 

Technically, Star Wars is Space Opera with some pulp style overtones from the Anime and Japanese movies that Lucas stole from. It's a bit of a combination of older styles the kids wouldn't be familiar with, so they can have trouble grokking it.

 

I disagree. A lot of fantasy authors add in random skills to fit their narrative without any lead in or build up to it. The difference is we usually do no think much about it because the genre's skill system is not as transparent nor in our face. It is more implied than explicit, whereas I feel like LitRPG is more explicit than implied. If that makes sense.

But point I was making, is that most of the people that tried to explain it to me, it had two parts, one is the game menus, and the other is the transparent progression / skill up systems. Beyond that, the rest is up for interpretation. Hell, I call my book LitRPG and it's in an Office building. Even in this thread that has been reiterated, so I am not saying anything new.

 

Ugh. Midichlorians.

 

I'm aware of the influence/overtones, but I don't think knowledge of those influences help very much with when deciding if Star Wars is Fantasy or Science Fiction. If the Force is "magic", then a classification isn't anywhere near as cut and dry as all that. Space Opera is a subgenre of Science Fiction though, so would I be correct in assuming that you fall into the Science Fiction side of the argument/discussion/debate?

In any event, most of the angst from the two camps came from people who were old enough to see the first movie in theaters when it was released (Happy Anniversary by the way, Star Wars!), so it wasn't an issue with grokkability.

 

Calling it Space Opera is to me easier. While it's considered a Science Fiction genre, in reality, it could be considered a variation of Science Fantasy. Star Wars is a cross-genre or mixed-genre story which really has chunks of Science Fiction and the Fantasy Fiction genre...So, Space Opera, which also implies the pulp style swashbuckler tropes. The influences help the understanding because the era the influences were coming from were not so cut and dried with the genre labels.

Also, I think a big part of that was Lucas really showing off a bumbling storytelling style with his attempt to turn the force into SCIENCE! by waiving a magic pen at it. This is my observation after having watched more bad 1950's sci-fi and horror movies than most people know ever existed. I was a Philly kid who grew up religiously watching Dr. Shock every Saturday. Every Saturday he was on, I watched. I did see Star Wars when it was first released. Han Shot First!

Also, one of my favorite movies is Knightriders, the re-telling of the Legend of King Arthur set in a traveling Renaissance Faire where they do their jousting using motorcycles. So, an Epic Motorcycle Fantasy movie.

it's like with the Indiana Jones movies. Indiana Jone is a recreation of the old pulp stories. People didn't get the Crystal Skull movie, mostly because they didn't understand that for the pulps of the 1950s the Nazi was defeated, the new villain was communist Russia and it was all about the aliens. The new pulps adopting a vaguely sciency tone to reflect the modern times.

 

I find this discussion quite hilarious. What you're all now describing is Science Fantasy, a.k.a. SciFan. Here's the definition for those of you who are unfamiliar with it: http://wp.me/p7XroE-4

 

I'll post the it all here for ease of reference :

“Science fantasy is a mixed genre within the umbrella of speculative fiction which simultaneously draws upon and/or combines tropes and elements from both science fiction and fantasy. It also sometimes incorporates elements of horror fiction.” [1]

Science Fantasy (SciFan) is a genre that is often ignored. Not too many people are familiar with the genre, but it was originally coined in the late 1930’s by John W. Campbell, Jr. in his magazine that was (ironically) entitled Unknown.

The Science Fiction genre is often defined as the improbable made possible, whereas the Fantasy genre is commonly defined as the impossible made probable. So then, what is Science Fantasy (SciFan)?

“As a combination of the two, science fantasy gives a scientific veneer of realism to things that simply could not happen in the real world under any circumstances. Where science fiction does not permit the existence of fantasy or supernatural elements, science fantasy explicitly relies upon them.” [2]

Many even argue that SciFan would more appropriately classify George Lucas’ Star Wars saga.



Think about it. Despite common belief, Star Wars is not Science Fiction. As fellow author Simon Dillon explains, “Let’s be completely clear on this: Star Wars is not science fiction. It is fantasy; a fairy tale that happens to be set in space. Perhaps the setting is what confuses people, but just because something takes place in space doesn’t make it science fiction.” [3]

You might be asking yourself now, “What supernatural elements are depicted in Star Wars?”

Two Words: “The Force” is a mystical entity that is supernatural in nature. This is the primary element of Fantasy in the Star Wars saga that most people don’t take into consideration. Again, just because a story takes place in space doesn’t necessarily mean that it falls under the genre of Science Fiction.

There are many new stories that classify as SciFan, but the genre has been suppressed from the standard norm. The public has become so unfamiliar with the term, that even Amazon.com doesn’t recognize it in their Kindle Store categories.

 

Science Fantasy is a cop out genre. I embrace it, but the discussion I am relating was amongst a horde of purists who would sooner acknowledge the existence of sentient pudding than a genre where Fantasy and Science Fiction combined (the thinking being that the instant there's a smackering of Fantasy, the whole thing is Fantastical, since it's abandoned the pretenses of "could or is likely to happen".)

Nevertheless, litRPG as a genre is probably A) wrongly named and B) still evolving.

 

I hope I'm not coming off as combative, by the way! If I am, it's not my intent...

 

@Matthew Siege your comment "Science Fantasy is a cop out genre." hits a little bit close to home (but don't in worry - I'm not offended). In case you were unaware, I'm the leader of the Science Fantasy Society on Facebook and the SciFan Society on RRL, leading over 600 authors. Here's a better definition, and what we're trying to accomplish:

Science Fantasy (SciFan) is a genre that fuses magical and technological elements in an elegant way in order to create worlds that inspire the imagination. It can also be a type of Science Fiction that uses alternate or imaginary science and technology that is simply impossible given all known scientific laws, theories, and constraints. Supernatural elements in this sense are also classified generally as ‘magic’. Likewise, scientific elements in this sense are also classified generally as ‘technology’. There are three degrees of SciFan:

Enlightened: Magic is fused with technology in order to manipulate and magnify the magic.

Standard: Magic is fused with technology, but not necessarily in a coherent sense.

Soft: Magic and Technology are merely present in the same realm.

We've listed off multiple subgenres of Science Fantasy, and ironically some LitRPG fits within it. You might also be surprised to learn that on multiple occasions in interviews and what-not @Blaise Corvin has even labeled his Delvers LLC series as a "Science Fantasy LitRPG".

 

@Aleric Elos I was not aware. No offense intended, and I do apologize. The smiley face was meant to take the sting out of the sentence, but it doesn't seem to have done its job. All of this stuff is why I just say "Speculative Fiction" when people ask what I write.

In any event, I'm just here to get the weird stuff in my head into the heads of other people.

 

@Matthew Siege - no worries. No offense taken